Tilefish ich or sand?

[christinna77]

Really hope I'm posting the final update today! The tilefish was moved to the DT last Friday and has been doing great - except I've noticed it yawning. Sometimes I don't see it yawn for a while, then it yawns twice in a row. That said, it's been creating tunnels all over my tank and is constantly in and out of them. I'm hoping the sand is just irritating it and it's not flukes. I was super careful transferring to the DT - I used two separate nets and even "rinsed" it in a separate bucket. Its breathing seems normal, and it's still got normal appetite. I haven't noticed any other fish yawning or flashing, everyone else is acting normal.

I also noticed some stringy brown poop today - that's most likely due to recently incorporating freeze dried meat into its diet in case I'm away for a few days and can't feed frozen in the future.

Here's a video of it yawning:


Video of burrowing (it's always in and out of the tunnels under that cave):


A few more pictures:

 

[Kasrift]

Late to the party here, but I think I the yawning could just be irritated gills. I've read that they are sensitive to copper, it can be done, but it can burn their gills. This would account for the yawning and swimming at the surface for air.

We chatted in your other thread, I didn't do copper for my flashing tilefish. I did 3 rounds of Prazi and metro for internal parasites and just watched it forever. I got it in Feb and just transferred it a week and a half ago to my display.

Incidentally, I got another tilefish, a blue jaw that is in QT right now. I'll do my third round of Prazi next Tuesday. That one swims at the surface like crazy as if there isn't enough oxygen. Even more than the flashing tilefish did. Granted it is a lot larger, so I think the 20gallon long might feel cramped for it. One more week though and it will be added to the 200g.

 

[christinna77]

Late to the party here, but I think I the yawning could just be irritated gills. I've read that they are sensitive to copper, it can be done, but it can burn their gills. This would account for the yawning and swimming at the surface for air.

We chatted in your other thread, I didn't do copper for my flashing tilefish. I did 3 rounds of Prazi and metro for internal parasites and just watched it forever. I got it in Feb and just transferred it a week and a half ago to my display.

Incidentally, I got another tilefish, a blue jaw that is in QT right now. I'll do my third round of Prazi next Tuesday. That one swims at the surface like crazy as if there isn't enough oxygen. Even more than the flashing tilefish did. Granted it is a lot larger, so I think the 20gallon long might feel cramped for it. One more week though and it will be added to the 200g.

This is super helpful - thank you for your reply! I really wasn't going to do copper, but I felt like I didn't have a choice since both my butterfly and tilefish had ich in QT, and it seemed pretty severe. Then I also noticed lots of flashing targeting the gills, and I did GC while in copper, as I was convinced it had flukes as well. Let me tell you, never again - that was the most stressful night! I was pretty sure I lost him.

I had mine in a 15g tank and felt it was really ready to go into my DT after almost a month. I probably should've kept it there longer for more observation, but I noticed it was pretty stressed out the last week (although still eating and everything), so I risked it.

If it's gill damage, which would make perfect sense, I hope it can recover soon - I absolutely don't want to put it through more meds.

My skunk still swims at the surface with its head sticking out, but only at night. I feel like it gets very easily spooked by light. I turn off the lights very gradually, but even then it sometimes freaks out. When the tank is dark and I turn on the bathroom light, the little glow that leaks into my room can spook it. Even cars passing by sometimes - light through the window can be enough. That's my guess at least, since I've seen it freak out firsthand when I either turned on the light in another room or walked by the tank too fast at night. I've been thinking of trying moonlights or very dim red lights at night to see if that helps.

I'm also trying to look for another tilefish, a purple one - I think mine would enjoy a friend and it could calm it down a bit more. Right now, it's like a lonely whale swimming all around the tank and looking for friends.

 

[Kasrift]

This is super helpful - thank you for your reply! I really wasn't going to do copper, but I felt like I didn't have a choice since both my butterfly and tilefish had ich in QT, and it seemed pretty severe. Then I also noticed lots of flashing targeting the gills, and I did GC while in copper, as I was convinced it had flukes as well. Let me tell you, never again - that was the most stressful night! I was pretty sure I lost him.

I had mine in a 15g tank and felt it was really ready to go into my DT after almost a month. I probably should've kept it there longer for more observation, but I noticed it was pretty stressed out the last week (although still eating and everything), so I risked it.

If it's gill damage, which would make perfect sense, I hope it can recover soon - I absolutely don't want to put it through more meds.

My skunk still swims at the surface with its head sticking out, but only at night. I feel like it gets very easily spooked by light. I turn off the lights very gradually, but even then it sometimes freaks out. When the tank is dark and I turn on the bathroom light, the little glow that leaks into my room can spook it. Even cars passing by sometimes - light through the window can be enough. That's my guess at least, since I've seen it freak out firsthand when I either turned on the light in another room or walked by the tank too fast at night. I've been thinking of trying moonlights or very dim red lights at night to see if that helps.

I'm also trying to look for another tilefish, a purple one - I think mine would enjoy a friend and it could calm it down a bit more. Right now, it's like a lonely whale swimming all around the tank and looking for friends.

Your other post on your skunk tilefish has me considering one. I want another tilefish and unintentionally acquired the blue jaw. An online vendor sent the wrong fish, so since they refunded me and I get to keep the fish, guess that one is going to join the big tank.

 

[christinna77]

Your other post on your skunk tilefish has me considering one. I want another tilefish and unintentionally acquired the blue jaw. An online vendor sent the wrong fish, so since they refunded me and I get to keep the fish, guess that one is going to join the big tank.

It's a funny story actually. I was showing my partner all the different tilefish and was pretty set on getting a purple or blue one, but his favorite was the skunk! I told him that was my least favorite, haha. Then, a week or so later, we went to the LFS to get a butterfly, and incidentally they had skunk tilefish in stock. They had three, and I instantly fell for one of them - it was love at first sight, and I had to get it lol. My partner got to name it Sushi, and now he comes up to the tank all the time to say hi.

Honestly, if I could, I'd have them all. A big dedicated tank just to tilefish - maybe one day. Do you find your blue jaw more outgoing and more puppy like than the flashing one? I've heard flashing ones are usually very shy.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Late to the party here, but I think I the yawning could just be irritated gills. I've read that they are sensitive to copper, it can be done, but it can burn their gills. This would account for the yawning and swimming at the surface for air.

We chatted in your other thread, I didn't do copper for my flashing tilefish. I did 3 rounds of Prazi and metro for internal parasites and just watched it forever. I got it in Feb and just transferred it a week and a half ago to my display.

Incidentally, I got another tilefish, a blue jaw that is in QT right now. I'll do my third round of Prazi next Tuesday. That one swims at the surface like crazy as if there isn't enough oxygen. Even more than the flashing tilefish did. Granted it is a lot larger, so I think the 20gallon long might feel cramped for it. One more week though and it will be added to the 200g.

There is no evidence that copper "burns" the gills of fish, that information just gets repeated over and over online. Ionic copper can cause toxicity, but that isn't evidenced in the fish's gills, it is an internal toxicity seen in some fish like Centropyge angels. Amine-chelated copper is safe.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Really hope I'm posting the final update today! The tilefish was moved to the DT last Friday and has been doing great - except I've noticed it yawning. Sometimes I don't see it yawn for a while, then it yawns twice in a row. That said, it's been creating tunnels all over my tank and is constantly in and out of them. I'm hoping the sand is just irritating it and it's not flukes. I was super careful transferring to the DT - I used two separate nets and even "rinsed" it in a separate bucket. Its breathing seems normal, and it's still got normal appetite. I haven't noticed any other fish yawning or flashing, everyone else is acting normal.

I also noticed some stringy brown poop today - that's most likely due to recently incorporating freeze dried meat into its diet in case I'm away for a few days and can't feed frozen in the future.

Here's a video of it yawning:


Video of burrowing (it's always in and out of the tunnels under that cave):


A few more pictures:

Yawning once in awhile isn't a huge concern for this species, but if you see that behavior combined with flashing/scratching, then I'd suspect gill flukes and treat with praziquantel. A third symptom would be if any fish posture in front of the cleaner shrimp you have. Tilefish may not posture due to their habits, but other fish will.

Dosing Praziquantel (PZQ)

Using Praziquantel (PZQ) to treat flukes Overview In the early 1990’s, a researcher at the New York Aquarium published a paper on using Praziquantel (PZQ) to help control flukes, a parasitic flatworm. Also known as monogenean trematodes, these fish parasites can cause significant mortality in...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Kasrift]

There is no evidence that copper "burns" the gills of fish, that information just gets repeated over and over online. Ionic copper can cause toxicity, but that isn't evidenced in the fish's gills, it is an internal toxicity seen in some fish like Centropyge angels. Amine-chelated copper is safe.

I've gone off the info from a few threads on flashing tilefish from @i cant think as there was very limited information on Flashing tilefish as I went through a QT process with it.

my LFS has a nice sized purple in at the minute (I think actually it’s a bit larger than the Flashing tile in my tank at the moment) and the debate on grabbing it is getting to me. I’ve been eyeing its price tag (Since it was in QT for a while) ever since it first showed up.

Also, my BIG issue with these fish when in QT is if they’ve been through copper. These are some of the most sensitive fish to copper and will be left with copper burns on their gills if it’s kept uncontrolled or on the higher side.

I could definitely be wrong, just this is the information I saw here and on Humblefish.

 

[christinna77]

Yawning once in awhile isn't a huge concern for this species, but if you see that behavior combined with flashing/scratching, then I'd suspect gill flukes and treat with praziquantel. A third symptom would be if any fish posture in front of the cleaner shrimp you have. Tilefish may not posture due to their habits, but other fish will.

Dosing Praziquantel (PZQ)

Using Praziquantel (PZQ) to treat flukes Overview In the early 1990’s, a researcher at the New York Aquarium published a paper on using Praziquantel (PZQ) to help control flukes, a parasitic flatworm. Also known as monogenean trematodes, these fish parasites can cause significant mortality in...

www.reef2reef.com

Thank you, I'll keep an eye on it. My blenny regularly asks for the cleaner shrimp to groom it, I don't really see any changes there. Blue assessor and tilefish mostly ignore them.

I just got Hikari Prazipro delivered, took a while because of international shipping to Canada. I suppose this one can be used in DT with some extra aeration if needed? I only have shrimps, crabs, and a serpent star, and a few soft/LPS corals.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thank you, I'll keep an eye on it. My blenny regularly asks for the cleaner shrimp to groom it, I don't really see any changes there. Blue assessor and tilefish mostly ignore them.

I just got Hikari Prazipro delivered, took a while because of international shipping to Canada. I suppose this one can be used in DT with some extra aeration if needed? I only have shrimps, crabs, and a serpent star, and a few soft/LPS corals.

Yes - you can dose Prazipro in your DT if done carefully (see the article I posted for you).

 

[christinna77]

Update: I thought I had flukes because my fish were scratching and yawning. I saw some white dots on my blue assessor, but I assumed it was just sand from all the flashing, since they all disappeared within 12 hours. That was on Thursday, when I also administered PraziPro - and all the fish handled it really well.

I didn't see any more white dots until this morning, and it's worse than last time. My tilefish flashed against the sand five times in a row and ate less than usual. It seems generally uncomfortable. The blue assessor now has more white dots but is still eating and swimming around. Not sure about the stary blenny, but it also seems to be acting normal.

I set up a third tank today because my QT tank wouldn't fit all five fish (two in QT already). I'm increasing copper to 2 ppm today. The tilefish was easy to catch, but the blenny and assessor are still avoiding the trap.

I plan to raise the temperature to 82F in DT and go fallow for at least six weeks, probably more. Hope everyone can pull through :(

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Update: I thought I had flukes because my fish were scratching and yawning. I saw some white dots on my blue assessor, but I assumed it was just sand from all the flashing, since they all disappeared within 12 hours. That was on Thursday, when I also administered PraziPro - and all the fish handled it really well.

I didn't see any more white dots until this morning, and it's worse than last time. My tilefish flashed against the sand five times in a row and ate less than usual. It seems generally uncomfortable. The blue assessor now has more white dots but is still eating and swimming around. Not sure about the stary blenny, but it also seems to be acting normal.

I set up a third tank today because my QT tank wouldn't fit all five fish (two in QT already). I'm increasing copper to 2 ppm today. The tilefish was easy to catch, but the blenny and assessor are still avoiding the trap.

I plan to raise the temperature to 82F in DT and go fallow for at least six weeks, probably more. Hope everyone can pull through :(

Raising the water temperature is the wrong thing to do with marine ich (it's a FW ich treatment). With marine fish, all it does is take the ich organism to its "sweet spot" for reproduction, making it more difficult to control. 78 to 79 degrees, plus copper at 2.25 ppm is the best way to go.

I only see a few ich spots on the assessor, so you should be able to cure this with no problem. The fish may well have had ich AND flukes (pretty common, really).

 

[christinna77]

Raising the water temperature is the wrong thing to do with marine ich (it's a FW ich treatment). With marine fish, all it does is take the ich organism to its "sweet spot" for reproduction, making it more difficult to control. 78 to 79 degrees, plus copper at 2.25 ppm is the best way to go.

I only see a few ich spots on the assessor, so you should be able to cure this with no problem. The fish may well have had ich AND flukes (pretty common, really).

Thank you, I really appreciate you keeping up with my thread! And sorry, I meant I'm going to raise the temperature in DT while going fallow. I'm keeping the temperature in my quarantine tanks around 77-78.

Prazip should've worked for flukes though, right? I dosed it on Thursday, and I assumed they'd stop scratching/yawning after the first 48h, but they never did, and today it got even worse and the white spots came back, which makes me think it's ich. Anyhow, I've got Prazi ready in case I need to treat for flukes again, after copper is done.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thank you, I really appreciate you keeping up with my thread! And sorry, I meant I'm going to raise the temperature in DT while going fallow. I'm keeping the temperature in my quarantine tanks around 77-78.

Prazip should've worked for flukes though, right? I dosed it on Thursday, and I assumed they'd stop scratching/yawning after the first 48h, but they never did, and today it got even worse and the white spots came back, which makes me think it's ich. Anyhow, I've got Prazi ready in case I need to treat for flukes again, after copper is done.

Yes - raising the temp in the fallow tank speeds things up (as long as your corals can tolerate it).

Prazi needs to be dosed a minimum of two times, 5 to 8 days apart.....sometimes it takes a number of doses.

 

[christinna77]

Update: Today I noticed the tilefish is breathing faster than normal. It was moved to QT on Monday, and copper power was increased to 2.1 by Tuesday and has been hovering around 2.1–2.2 for the last two days. I thought it might be an issue with water quality (even though I did a 30% WC on Monday), so I did another 60% WC a few hours ago, but no change. I also moved one of the airstones from the AIO chamber back into the tank just in case.

The tilefish is still eagerly eating (a bit too eagerly, seems hungrier than usual, I already feed it 4-5 times a day with small portions of frozen mix), but the faster breathing is concerning me a bit. The tamarin wrasse in the same tank is still acting normal, I don’t see any rapid breathing from it, although I see it flash its head against the sand a few times a day - I figure it's looking for food though.

I also don’t see any of the previous fluke symptoms on the tilefish, no more yawning or flashing, just some discomfort and faster breathing.

Here's the latest video:

 

[christinna77]

Tilefish got worse, it's just swimming and gasping at the surface now. I've still no idea what's wrong. I gave it a 5 min FW dip (same pH and temp), but that didn't seem to do much.

The only other thing I can think of is to do another large WC and get the copper down to 1ppm or less. I'm worried this would allow any free swimming ich to attach to the fish, and might make it worse, though.

#fishmedic If anyone is online, I'd appreciate any advice!

TLDR:
1. I thought DT had flukes due to the tilefish flashing and yawning a lot, as well as some other fish in the tank showing similar symptoms. I saw tiny white dots on one fish, but assumed it was sand due to flashing. Treated the whole DT with 1x Prazipro on Thursday last week. All fish seemed to improve and dots went away. No more flashing. I planned to redose again on Tuesday.
2. On Monday tiny white dots returned, I assumed ich and moved all the fish to QT including the tilefish.
3. Copper power increased to 2.1-2.2 ppm on Tuesday (double checked with Hanna), been there for the past 2 days.
4. Tilefish developed sudden rapid breathing on Thursday afternoon, and it's been getting progressively worse, although it hasn't stopped eating.
6. 60% water change was performed, no detectable ammonia before or after.
7. A few hours later, tilefish is now gasping at the surface. Airstone has been running the entire time, moved it from the AIO chamber to the tank just in case.
8. Tilefish was given a 5 min FW dip around 30m ago, didn't seem to help.
9. The other fish in the QT, a tamarin wrasse, acts completely normal.

 

[christinna77]

Video taken around 30m after FW dip. I don't see any flukes in the bucket.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Video taken around 30m after FW dip. I don't see any flukes in the bucket.

That's a super fast decline.

The other fish being unaffected tends to rule out water quality - but have you tested for ammonia using a test other than the two disks?

I really doubt that it's the copper, tamarin wrasse are considered more sensitive to copper, as well as prazi.

There is NO evidence that it slammed into the tank top, right? That is one thing that surely causes sudden onset of symptoms.

Sorry - I don't have a clear treatment direction to go with this fish......

 

[christinna77]

That's a super fast decline.

The other fish being unaffected tends to rule out water quality - but have you tested for ammonia using a test other than the two disks?

I really doubt that it's the copper, tamarin wrasse are considered more sensitive to copper, as well as prazi.

There is NO evidence that it slammed into the tank top, right? That is one thing that surely causes sudden onset of symptoms.

Sorry - I don't have a clear treatment direction to go with this fish......

Thanks! It's a mystery. I feel like I'm doing everything right, yet it's giving me such a hard time. I've decided to not get any more fish from that LFS. The only two I've got was the butterfly and the tilefish, and both turned out to be very sick. Another local reefer also told me they don't really get fish from them since they're often in a bad shape.

And yes, I tested ammonia with Salifert too. It's possible it slammed into the top when I wasn't watching, but that's mostly mesh with a solid skeleton.

Another thing I can think of: I got some grindal worms yesterday and fed a few to the tank before it started breathing heavily. I didn't see it eat any - only the wrasse did, and they weren't a big hit overall. Could there have been something bad in their substrate perhaps? I got them from a FW fish keeper.

Anyway, I just woke up to check on it, expecting the worst, and found it in the cave resting. It finally calmed down around 5 am. It doesn't look like it's breathing as hard anymore, but I'll have to confirm again in a few hours since it's hard to see and I don't want to stress it further.

 

[W31Olds]

You indicated that you took the Video just after a FW dip. If I had to guess the aftereffects/stress of the Dip caused that behavior. I agree with Jay that the copper is not the problem and lowering it has reset the clock for ich eradication. I would also consider a UV System for you DT if you don't already have one.