Trident FAQ

[Terence]

Just curious if it is ever possible to have a cheaper upgrade or trade in offer to help international loyal classic customer to jump in onto the 2016 bandwagon ????

cheaper than what?

 

[David Cher]

cheaper than what?

$200 discount for international customer to purchase the 2016 head unit since there is no plans to create a 220v eb.

 

[Newb73]

You asked what I would do as a customer - you should know that I was an Apex customer the first year they came out (2009) - long before I became an employee (2012). Wow - it has been that long... So, if I were a paying Control Freak right now, and knew I was going to get the Trident when it came out, and had owned my Classic for more than a year, and I had not yet made the plunge to get a new Apex, I would sell off my Apex Classic for whatever I can get for it, along with one of my EB8 (because I would/did have more than one), along with all the probes, and PM2 and would have bought the new Apex two weekends ago for $719. Net to me would be likely ~$350-$450 and for that I would have got the new Apex, a better Energy Bar, a completely new set of probes, and a new one-year warranty. Oh, and because I bought it with my Amex, I would get an extra year of warranty. You asked what I would do - well that is absolutely the most honest answer I could give and I am glad you asked.

Close.

I am 2 years in and plan to buy a 2016 after the trident has been out a year or more. I don't like new products but have experienced Neptunes great customer service a few times now and that deserves supporting.

No way I'll sell either of my EB8s since they are backwards compatible.

I'll just wait till my PH and ORP probe are really at end of life.

Won't sell my base unit either as I have learned to ALWAYS have a back up controller.

That will leave me with 1 base apex (my current back up) to sell if anyone is interested.

The Classic still has some life left. I just got my DOS and still need a DDR, FMM, and ATK before I have every possible accessory.

Part of me thinks I might could get away with skipping a generation but I am Sure Neptune will make some nice price moves in a year or two to get us stragglers on board (hint hint).

 

[Terence]

$200 discount for international customer to purchase the 2016 head unit since there is no plans to create a 220v eb.

Pretty confident that is not going to happen.

 

[ca1ore]

When the 2016 came out there was a problem with a chip in a percentage of the first set of units that were shipped. Many users posted problems and Neptune customer support was excellent in solving these problems (at least in my case) . There were also several issues with connectivity etc that have been mostly resolved by firmware updates. I am not angry about it - but on the other side, I will never again be an early adopter of a technology on my reef tank. Additionally, Im not sure I would ever trust any device to control monitoring and dosing chemicals into the tank. There (to me) would seem to be too much room for error - and even with 'back up programming' a small problem would lead to a disaster quickly.

Totally with you on both points. Monitor and alert, yes; but be very judicious about what you use to trigger things like dosing. No early adoptering chez moi; recipe for disaster IME.

 

[Newb73]

You almost need a FO tank with nothing but damsels running if you are an early adopter so you can run it on that before moving it to your main display.

IMO, you are essentially still providing a service for Neptune being an early adopter (and this goes for any first year product from cars to computers to tv's to guns)....as you beta test and help the manufacturer work out kinks at YOUR expense.

The most egregious is car issues, but doing it on a reef has the potential perhaps to be even more frustrating/heartbreaking than car problems because you are dealing with live stock rather than inanimate objects.

Not a slam on Neptune Apex either, from what I can tell they take care of their customers which is why I keep buying their toys.

It's just a reality of the product cycle.

I can tell you I REALLY wanted a DOS when they first came out. But waited until their 10% off sale a couple weeks ago to buy one.

I run two main pumps so I'm going to want two Cores and I'll be installing two FMM monitors as well, but no way I'm getting them at release.

 

[Royal_Reef]

While the current NSI group is closed, there will likely be a "call for new NSI members" that will happen in the not too distant future. To be considered for NSI for the Trident, applicants would have to be already using the latest Apex.

That's great news, It's a good thing I'm fully stocked with all this new apex gear I just picked up. I'm so excited for what's to come!

I can't wait to see what else the Trident has in store for us. I'm sure there's a lot of control freaks just waiting for this to release. Q1 and 2 couldn't get here any faster! Where does the line start for any potential NSI candidates I want to be first in line.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I feel it is important for manufacturers to stay connected to their customers, even those that are not happy about their products or their product direction. So, despite the tone, I will answer some, but not all of your questions. I am not dodging, its just for some of these questions they either are not relevant (of course in my opinion, but that is what forums are about, right?), or we are not going to give out that proprietary info, or we are not yet ready to disclose the information. So here is what I can tell you.

The Trident uses an LED system to detect the changes that happen during titration. LED are rated for many thousands of hours of service. This is not something that should be concerning factor for long-term ownership of the Trident.

We will provide a set of calibration standards with the Trident.

I would hope that you would be skeptical about our product as well as the products from others that have been demonstrated but not yet seen out in the reefkeeping world. That said, the prototypes for the alkalinity component of the Trident have been in place and testing on real reef aquariums (including Rich Ross - the king of skeptical reefkeeping) for more than a year with nearly zero maintenance (although one of the prototype components in Rich's system did have a minor issue once in that timeframe).

We are still perfecting the test schedules that make the most sense. That said, at this point, we are recommending at least once a day for Ca and Mg.

I do not need to sell you on the Trident at this time. It is too early for that. There will be plenty of time for us to provide more information and for you to do more research. That said, the Trident will require a new Apex, and you have said you absolutely will not upgrade, so there is not much point in trying to sell you if that is the case.

We do not yet know what the warranty will be.

I do not know how you are possibly getting to $1600. Furthermore, never did I say that there would not be a way for existing owners of the classic to purchase the 2016 Apex Base unit. I simply said that it is not available now, and it would likely not make the most financial sense if or when it were ever made available.

You asked what I would do as a customer - you should know that I was an Apex customer the first year they came out (2009) - long before I became an employee (2012). Wow - it has been that long... So, if I were a paying Control Freak right now, and knew I was going to get the Trident when it came out, and had owned my Classic for more than a year, and I had not yet made the plunge to get a new Apex, I would sell off my Apex Classic for whatever I can get for it, along with one of my EB8 (because I would/did have more than one), along with all the probes, and PM2 and would have bought the new Apex two weekends ago for $719. Net to me would be likely ~$350-$450 and for that I would have got the new Apex, a better Energy Bar, a completely new set of probes, and a new one-year warranty. Oh, and because I bought it with my Amex, I would get an extra year of warranty. You asked what I would do - well that is absolutely the most honest answer I could give and I am glad you asked.

That is a fair assessment and we can do a better job in this area.

We are continually improving connectivity on Wi-Fi, including an upcoming release of AOS that has many new provisions to deal with difficult non-compliant wi-fi networks. That said, I will ALWAYS recommend a wired over a Wi-Fi connection for any piece of connected equipment - especially one that is mission-critical. That is not a slight to our product, that is a comment pointed at the very unreliable nature of wi-fi networking itself. Someone at MACNA came by the booth who had a photo-copier business for many years. He told me about how a number of years back, wifi for copiers was all the rage, now he said the pendulum has swung back due to all the unreliability.


I do understand these things. And your points have some merit. But we are not forcing anyone to do anything and there are plenty of issues we see ongoing with the Classic as well that is the nature of technology. But understand that the curve of issues over time is not linear - it is always steepest in the first year of any new technology product.

Thank you for being a customer, and thank you for staying engaged in the conversation.

@Terence, thank you for continuing to answer questions in this thread. I found these two posts in particular to be very helpful. I'll continue to follow this discussion and look forward to the advances Neptune continues to make in bringing new tech to the hobby.

 

[MockandRoll]

.......has Neptune discussed ways to make the cal and mag reagents last longer? @Terence

Do reagents go bad due to evaporation of reagent or some chemical reaction?
@Randy Holmes-Farley

@Terence @Randy Holmes-Farley

I didn't see a response to my questions above. If reagents go bad due to evaporation and/or an interaction with the air in the tubing, couldn't Neptune put a solenoid on the reagent tubing to make the mag and cal reagents last longer? Has anything like this been discussed?

 

[justingraham]

I feel it is important for manufacturers to stay connected to their customers, even those that are not happy about their products or their product direction. So, despite the tone, I will answer some, but not all of your questions. I am not dodging, its just for some of these questions they either are not relevant (of course in my opinion, but that is what forums are about, right?), or we are not going to give out that proprietary info, or we are not yet ready to disclose the information. So here is what I can tell you.

The Trident uses an LED system to detect the changes that happen during titration. LED are rated for many thousands of hours of service. This is not something that should be concerning factor for long-term ownership of the Trident.

We will provide a set of calibration standards with the Trident.

I would hope that you would be skeptical about our product as well as the products from others that have been demonstrated but not yet seen out in the reefkeeping world. That said, the prototypes for the alkalinity component of the Trident have been in place and testing on real reef aquariums (including Rich Ross - the king of skeptical reefkeeping) for more than a year with nearly zero maintenance (although one of the prototype components in Rich's system did have a minor issue once in that timeframe).

We are still perfecting the test schedules that make the most sense. That said, at this point, we are recommending at least once a day for Ca and Mg.

I do not need to sell you on the Trident at this time. It is too early for that. There will be plenty of time for us to provide more information and for you to do more research. That said, the Trident will require a new Apex, and you have said you absolutely will not upgrade, so there is not much point in trying to sell you if that is the case.

We do not yet know what the warranty will be.

I do not know how you are possibly getting to $1600. Furthermore, never did I say that there would not be a way for existing owners of the classic to purchase the 2016 Apex Base unit. I simply said that it is not available now, and it would likely not make the most financial sense if or when it were ever made available.

You asked what I would do as a customer - you should know that I was an Apex customer the first year they came out (2009) - long before I became an employee (2012). Wow - it has been that long... So, if I were a paying Control Freak right now, and knew I was going to get the Trident when it came out, and had owned my Classic for more than a year, and I had not yet made the plunge to get a new Apex, I would sell off my Apex Classic for whatever I can get for it, along with one of my EB8 (because I would/did have more than one), along with all the probes, and PM2 and would have bought the new Apex two weekends ago for $719. Net to me would be likely ~$350-$450 and for that I would have got the new Apex, a better Energy Bar, a completely new set of probes, and a new one-year warranty. Oh, and because I bought it with my Amex, I would get an extra year of warranty. You asked what I would do - well that is absolutely the most honest answer I could give and I am glad you asked.

Thank you for ur replies

One last question on the trident with the other alk testers on the market or soon coming to the market are using ph probes. The trident is using leds as u said if a ph meter goes bad it can be replaced if the led lights go bad will they be replace able or is that going to be more cost effective to buy a new trident.

I love my apex I do may not seem like it to most people but it has been good to me. This upgrade thru a new apex makes me mad as it is once again my hard earned money I have to fork up for it. Are u pushers yes u are and that's great for u and the hobby but that's a lot of money to drop on a product I have that works fine if not better then the new apex

I still feel the same but thank u for answering my questions about ur product

 

[justingraham]

And I meant pushers as in pushing the technology

 

[Terence]

The issue for the Trident and extending the reagents is a bit more complicated and something that starts to get into proprietary methods so I won't be revealing any more than I have at this point.

 

[Terence]

Thank you for ur replies

One last question on the trident with the other alk testers on the market or soon coming to the market are using ph probes. The trident is using leds as u said if a ph meter goes bad it can be replaced if the led lights go bad will they be replace able or is that going to be more cost effective to buy a new trident.

I love my apex I do may not seem like it to most people but it has been good to me. This upgrade thru a new apex makes me mad as it is once again my hard earned money I have to fork up for it. Are u pushers yes u are and that's great for u and the hobby but that's a lot of money to drop on a product I have that works fine if not better then the new apex

I still feel the same but thank u for answering my questions about ur product

I believe the LED will have a service lifetime that will be longer than 99% of customers will keep their aquariums - and certainly many times the lifespan of a pH probe.

 

[MockandRoll]

The issue for the Trident and extending the reagents is a bit more complicated and something that starts to get into proprietary methods so I won't be revealing any more than I have at this point.

Thanks for responding.

 

[ca1ore]

I believe the LED will have a service lifetime that will be longer than 99% of customers will keep their aquariums - and certainly many times the lifespan of a pH probe.

Haha, true ..... though I am amongst the 1 percenter crowd ...... 30 plus years. Of course I'm always swapping out tech .......

 

[Newb73]

I still have my old hang on the back cpr skimmer and "state of the art" compact fluorescents....and I consider myself to be a total newb still.

Outlasting a set of LEDs hardly seems like a challenge and I'm working on it very hard with a few original Kessil A150s already.

Still consider myself a newb.

Your post reads like you don't expect people to last 2 years.

I've been keeping fish since 1989, but salt only since about 2003..and corals only since 2010.

Still consider myself a newb....

 

[Sleepydoc]

Haha, true ..... though I am amongst the 1 percenter crowd ...... 30 plus years. Of course I'm always swapping out tech .......

If you have a working Trident 30 years from now, I think Neptune would probably buy you a new one just so they could show off the original!

I still have my old hang on the back cpr skimmer and "state of the art" compact fluorescents....and I consider myself to be a total newb still.

Outlasting a set of LEDs hardly seems like a challenge and I'm working on it very hard with a few original Kessil A150s already.
.

The lifespan of an LED is in the thousands of hours. Remember that the Trident will likely only be using the LEDs for a few minutes per day, even if you are using a very aggressive testing regimen. Even with the limited info we have about the Trident right now, I can think of several things that I would worry about wearing out, but the LEDs are not one of them.

Regarding the Apex Classic vs 2016 - there are plenty of companies who offer older, less capable versions of their product at a cheaper price. That lets consumers make the choice and gives them the option of paying less money for fewer features. From the day the 2016 was released, Neptune was very clear that they would support the classic but that some future accessories would not be compatible. The Apex Classic still remains a very capable controller. Currently, the only feature that the 2016 has that the classic doesn't is the power monitoring. At some point next year, the Trident will be released and you can add that to the list, making it 2 items long. To my knowledge, there is nothing that the classic has lost in abilities; it can still do everything it could the day you bought it.

I have an Apex 2016 and like it, but at this point, I would have a hard time justifying the cost to upgrade from a classic to a 2016. Even once the Trident comes out, it's far from clear that it will be an essential piece of equipment. Alkalinity monitors are a cool new toy, but they are still very new and whether they will make any difference in the health of a tank is yet to be seen. If it turns out that they have no effect at all, then the Trident may turn out to be a very overpriced Salifert kit. If, on the other hand, it turns out that they are useful, then you have data that would actually justify the expense.

Technology is seductive. We all want the newest, best toys. Whether they consciously realize it or not, I honestly think the real issue for many people is the fact that they don't have the option to use the Trident. If it were compatible with the classic, I suspect many people would not buy it but still be happy because they could if they wanted to. Many times in the past, I have paid more for something with features I wasn't sure I needed but because I liked having the option to use them if I wanted to. I suspect most of us have done the same at one point or another. It doesn't make sense, but it's human nature.

 

[ca1ore]

Hmmmmn, let me see in another 30 years I'll be ..... Well, dead probably LOL.

On a less morbid note, I have not yet been able to justify switching to the new apex. I have the lite and it does everything I've asked if it. Will trident be the 'push' I need ..... Who knows, will wait and see though.

 

[Sleepydoc]

I have not yet been able to justify switching to the new apex. I have the lite and it does everything I've asked if it. Will trident be the 'push' I need ..... Who knows, will wait and see though.

The older and more experienced I get, the more pragmatic I have become and less enamored with new technology for the sake of it being new. There are far too many examples of the 'newest and greatest' being not so great. For me, function and reliability are far more important assets. If the lite is doing everything you need, I'd sit tight!

 

[infinityends]

Terence, something I don't believe has been mentioned although I haven't read every single post on this thread.

Related to reagents. This may be a feature that would be cost prohibitive to add or too late in product development.

But it would be useful for the reagent containers to have a chip similar to a printer cartridge that will tell the apex how much reagent is left and alert users when reagent is low.

More importantly. This chip could also report batch numbers and the apex could automatically alert users if it is discovered a bad batch of reagents were made/sold and were actively in use in a users trident unit.