What am I doing wrong?

[Gweeds1980]

If I 'dirty' up the tank a little as is suggested, what am I aiming for?

My understanding was that No3 of 2 isn't exactly ultra low and Po4 in the order of 0.03 seems to be what most of the reef experts recommend.

Should I just feed the fish more mysis and fish food to get more poop? Plus maybe more ReefRoids in the tank?

What your aiming for isn't really measurable... it's bacterial and microorganism diversity that you're after... I'm not suggesting you do anything with your nutrient levels... mine are similar, it's just that keeping it all clinically clean won't promote diversity at a microscopic level. It's that basic building block of an ecosystem that benefits all up the chain.

FWIW I have both ich and brook in my system (I know that because I put them there, on purpose), I do about a 10% WC each month with NSW and I pull out some algae from my refuge once a month or so. I clean my skimmer once a week and I feed 3 times a day with very very nutrient heavy food and lots of it. My fish and corals are healthy. They NEVER have diseases and every fish that has both male and female present breed, regularly.

Other than that, I don't put my hands in my tank... the sump, sure, fiddle about to your hearts content, but keep them out of the tank. It stops change, promotes consistency and promotes a more balanced system.

I vehemently oppose dosing of lotions and potions to chase nutrient numbers, get the balance of livestock, bacteria, microorganisms, export and food right and the nutrients will look after themselves.

 

[saltwater newby]

Hi All

I have a Red Sea Reefer 350 and its been running around 2 years. I feel like I have a good grasp of what I should be doing and how to deal with most common situations but I am struggling to get my reef to take off. The corals dont show great colour and grow very slowly if at all.

I am pretty dedicated to the task of keeping the reef and I am a person who likes to understand what he is doing and do it well. I am a bit OCD with anything like this and as such I have taken great care with the reef.

My parameters are
Salinity 1.026
Temp 25.6-26.2 C

Ca 430-445 (variation around 5 a day maximum, with Salifert, tested daily)
Kh 9.2dKh (variation around 0.1 dKh per day maximum, with Hanna, tested daily)
Mg 1300-1350 (tested weekly)
---I dose 24/7 using DOS for Ca, Kh, Mg

No3 steady at 2ppm
Po4 steady 0.03
---I dose Nopox at 3.4ml per day for No3 and Po4 control

My water is from RoDi unit with canisters last changed 6 weeks ago and Di resin same time. Water tests at 0TDS

My flow is via 2x Gyres and the total flow is approx 35x volume.

Lighting is 2x Hydra 52HD with a photoperiod of ramp up 9:30-13:00 peak with respiration cycles till 18:30 and a slow ramp down till off around 22:30. I supplement with 2x T5 between 11:00 and 19:00. PAR at the peak at the top of the rocks is 275 and at the bottom of the tank around 175.

The tank is stocked with 8 fish around 4-6 inches each (very healthy) and various inverts.
They are fed in the morning with 1 cube of defrosted, drained mysis and in the evening with a good pinch of fish pellets. I also put a seaweed clip in the tank in the afternoon for 20 mins.

The corals are fed with 5ml of both Reef Energy A&B pretty much daily and once or twice a week with Reef Roids.

Weekly cleaning, and vacuuming the shallow sand, plus turkey basting the rocks to get rid of any sediment. Bi weekly 10% water changes. All done without fail on schedule.

Any tips as to where I might be going wrong? I put a lot of effort into my tank and have done for 2 years with not great results.One thing I seem to not have a problem with is algae, scrape the glass every few days but that's normal. The most annoying thing is I know friends who seem to do nothing to their tanks and have amazing growth and colour even though their levels are off when I have tested their water.

hey bro, I posted something very similar to what you have posted on here. It seems like we are having very similar scenarios with our reefs. I also have a Red Sea reefer 350 about a year and a 1/2 old and I am using 2 gyres for water flow. I also use nopox on a dosing pump 6 ml per day. nitrates are in the low 1-2 ppm. po4 is at 0.02. most of my corals survive but don't grow at all with the exception of some softies and trumpet corals. I will follow along and hope to get some valuable pointers, I got some advise but nothing far from what I have been doing. by the way, what salt do you use? I had started the tank with Red Sea coral pro salt but switched to aquaforest reef salt once I ran out of it. But I might be switching once again after I run out of AF. Thinking about using FRITZ salt.

 

[Joe Batt]

hey bro, I posted something very similar to what you have posted on here. It seems like we are having very similar scenarios with our reefs. I also have a Red Sea reefer 350 about a year and a 1/2 old and I am using 2 gyres for water flow. I also use nopox on a dosing pump 6 ml per day. nitrates are in the low 1-2 ppm. po4 is at 0.02. most of my corals survive but don't grow at all with the exception of some softies and trumpet corals. I will follow along and hope to get some valuable pointers, I got some advise but nothing far from what I have been doing. by the way, what salt do you use? I had started the tank with Red Sea coral pro salt but switched to aquaforest reef salt once I ran out of it. But I might be switching once again after I run out of AF. Thinking about using FRITZ salt.

I started with RedSea Pro, but dropped that in the favour of RedSea Salt (Non Pro). The Pro has too high a Kh for my liking. I have tried to stay away from swapping around because I don't think that probably does the stability of the elements within the tank that much good. The RedSea salt has a good history of success so I don't think that's the problem.

 

[Spectre66]

The NO3PO4-X drove my nutrients way way too low and even though my test kits were showing low levels of nutrients the reality was there wasnt any. This included daily 20ml each reef energy suppliments and bi weekly coral frenzy. I got a Hanna ULR Phosphorus and it showed zero phosphorus, not 100% but pretty sure NO3 was the same.

Here are some questions for you:
If you are growing macro algae are you having to harvest at Least monthly?
Is there evidence that copepods are present(assuming you seeded at some point)
Do you have alot of white bio film or maybe some cyano?
Can you find any green algae in your tank with a flashlight?

The answer for me was no across the board(except for the biofilm and cyano). Stopped NoPox started feeding heavily and after 3 months and a courtesy visit from Reefaholic (lives very close by) things are finally on the mend.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Can we see a picture of the tank?

Depending on the height of the rocks, might try reducing peak par to 220-240 par at the top of the rock. Let that sit for 2 weeks and see how things do.

Stopped NoPox

+1
I mean stopping nopox should be considered.

 

[goatcorals]

I like the idea of pulling back on the carbon dosing to see what happens. I have certainly had great numbers on tanks for a year with crappy growth which I chalked up to a lack of biodiversity, but 2 years should be long enough to beat that I would think. Unless the bacteria consuming the carbon is pushing out other valuable types? Reaching perhaps....

Throw out another couple which you've likely though about... refractometer out of calibration?
Some kind of PH issue (low)?

 

[Spectre66]

As a point of reference for the OP, while I had dosed as much as 6ml daily Most of the 6 months I used nopox I only dosed 4ml daily with the last 3 months cutting back to 2ml and then 1 ml.

My tank is a 120g, and is now about 1 year old.

Edit, now that I think about it I had to have been using it for more like 9 months, 6 months full dose, 3 months weaning off.(was afraid of a crash if I just stopped)

 

[Sdoutreefer]

I agree on going easy on the carbon dosing. I've never had any luck with it. All SPS in my tank were pretty pale and would not like to grow. Just my .02.

 

[Joe Batt]

The refractometer I use is a Milwaukee and I calibrate it every time I use it, my Ph is 8.2-8.35 during the 24 hours.

I dose 3.4ml of NoPox which according to the RedSea recommendations is what it should be for a 350 tank. That actually surprised me because I came to that level via trial and error.

the attached picture shows 2 years worth of growth from frags.

The Jade grew fast initially and as did Setosa and Poclipora but now everything has slowly ground to a halt. If I add a frag it just sits there and does nothing. The anacropora on the top has been there 3 month and 0 growth. A mystic sunset/sunrise (?) montipora beneath the yellow tang has slowly receded. There is a frogspawn that has sat as one small frag for 6 months, it extends but thats it. I put a birds nest frag up the top a month ago and exactly the same, it extends but slowly seems to be losing colour. Frags at the back on the rack do nothing. Frags don't encrust, just sit there.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Corals grow faster with a bit more phosphate, up to 0.1 ppm. Colors of the corals look good. What do you want to improve in colors?

 

[Joe Batt]

I think I will increase the food to 2 cubes of mysis in the AM and cut the NoPox in half to see if that has any effect. I am tempted to reduce the water change to monthly as opposed to bi weekly, since No3 and Po4 are very low anyway, in an attempt to bring the No3 up to 5ppm.
I will see what difference No3 of 5ppm makes on the tank.

Plus endeavour to keep hands out of the tank.

 

[Joe Batt]

Corals grow faster with a bit more phosphate, up to 0.1 ppm. Colors of the corals look good. What do you want to improve in colors?

They look better in the photo than in real life.

 

[Joe Batt]

The NO3PO4-X drove my nutrients way way too low and even though my test kits were showing low levels of nutrients the reality was there wasnt any. This included daily 20ml each reef energy suppliments and bi weekly coral frenzy. I got a Hanna ULR Phosphorus and it showed zero phosphorus, not 100% but pretty sure NO3 was the same.

Here are some questions for you:
If you are growing macro algae are you having to harvest at Least monthly?
Is there evidence that copepods are present(assuming you seeded at some point)
Do you have alot of white bio film or maybe some cyano?
Can you find any green algae in your tank with a flashlight?

The answer for me was no across the board(except for the biofilm and cyano). Stopped NoPox started feeding heavily and after 3 months and a courtesy visit from Reefaholic (lives very close by) things are finally on the mend.

I don't grow macro algae, I tried 18 months ago and it didn't work, cheato slowly died.
There are copepods (when I last looked anyway)
No cyano or bio film (save the standard fuzzy on the rocks that show its alive).
No looked for green algae, I will look later.

 

[zachxlutz]

I don't grow macro algae, I tried 18 months ago and it didn't work, cheato slowly died.
There are copepods (when I last looked anyway)
No cyano or bio film (save the standard fuzzy on the rocks that show its alive).
No looked for green algae, I will look later.

Usually when macroalgaes fade it's due to a lack of N, P or Fe. Again, pointing toward a nutrient/trace element limited system.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I want to point out that all in all you aren't doing anything wrong. Your no3 and po4 are at sufficient level and everything else seems to be in order. Only thing I don't like is the carbon dosing. Most folks in this forum always have issues or will eventually have issues with carbon dosing. When I started reefing, I carbon dosed and nothing good came out of it. It can lead to cyano or other bacterial outbreaks especially when not used correctly.

I suggest you buzz through some of the SPS threads. Mainly the "how do I get best colors out of my sps" threads. I'm suggesting this because its a mixed coral tank. You'll find that N and P and alkalinity play a big roll. You have the dosing and parameters down but sometimes its hard to differentiate between browning and bleaching. Having NO3 at 2-5ppm and PO4 of 0.02-o.o4ppm isn't considered high or ultra low but more middle to low range. The recommended Alk levels range between 7-14dkh. With this some people run higher Alk when they have Higher N and P. And others run lower alk when they have lower N and P. I will say that when my N and P are your levels, I get better results with alk between 7.5-8dkh. Alkalinity in conjunction with lighting kind of dictates the rate of calcification in coral. When alk is higher the absorption rate of N, P, and calcium carbonate increases.

My parameter suggestion to you, would be to cut back on nopox till you can cut it out. Don't increase feedings(this can lead to unwanted algae). After nopox is cut, start watching nutrient levels to see where you are. If they increase and hold steady in an acceptable range of N:5-10 and P:0.04-0.08, your alk level of 9dkh would be fine. If your nutrient levels stay the same(N:2 and P:0.03), I would then slowly let alk fall to the 7-8dkh range.

 

[rck329]

I don't grow macro algae, I tried 18 months ago and it didn't work, cheato slowly died.
There are copepods (when I last looked anyway)
No cyano or bio film (save the standard fuzzy on the rocks that show its alive).
No looked for green algae, I will look later.

Your experiences are very similar to mine over the last 2 years. Things started out pretty good and then growth ground to a halt. New frags wouldn't grow and just faded away. I always had some po4 but never no3. It was always 0. Couldn't grow macro algae either. I tried carbon dosing via Zeovit method thinking I could use their "system" to control nutrients and feed but it just turned into a big mess.

I've since consolidated my 90g to a 40g and changed strategies based some more reading on nutrient levels and a talk I watched by Jason Fox. For the new tank I am dosing nitrates to keep them around 5ppm and I feed more to increase phosphates. No GFO, no carbon dosing and only a little bit of GAC. The Jason Fox talk really opened my eyes. He keeps things really simple - stable parameters, lots of flow and lots of water changes. He only feeds Rods and nori and doesn't add any trace elements, organic carbon, aminos or other additives. GFO or GAC only if he has problem, but generally water changes to make corrections. He uses IO salt adjusted to the parameters of his liking and is diligent with his testing. He is also big on flow - he mentions an acro that hasn't grown in a year - he moves to an area of more flow and it grows more in a month than the previous year. 30% water changes very 2 weeks.

So I'm trying his methods along with maintaining Nitrates by dosing NO3 directly (as needed) - I just got the new tank stable and added 6 new brightly colored SPS frags and so far so good but still to early to tell.

Here's the talk:


The other big takeaway for me was low nutrients->less light, more nutrients->more light

 

[SlvrZ]

as much as i hate my ATS for the noise and work i have to do (i'm lazy at least i admit it lol) i had\have better luck than when i nopox or even biopellets.

 

[rstrann]

To the OP, my advice is to toss another hydra on that tank, feed your fish more, and clean less thoroughly. I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that you'll see a dramatic change for the better within a couple months.