What is a healthy fish?

[Brew12]

I don't understand why anyone would have an "agenda" for quarantining. Prophylactic or passive observation. I hate quarantining. It's just a neccessary evil in my mind.

I don't understand it either. Unfortunately, it happens here on a regular basis and I don't get it. It is undeniable that the majority of the treatments cause harm to a fish. The amount of harm it does is open to debate. However, if that harm is mentioned it tends to be attacked.

Look at this article. There is an open hostility to the mentioning that a fish hosting Crypto can be free of disease and healthy. There are many scientific studies showing that fish immunity can prevent crypto from adversely impacting the normal functioning of a fish yet it's attacked with "my vet says" and is attempted to be discredited by an imaginary WHO definition. I just don't get it.

 

[WVNed]

I will defer to the experts on fish death and disease. I have been doing this since 2007 and still dont have any experience with that stuff.

 

[MnFish1]

a dead horse always draws flies

truer words were never spoken

 

[MnFish1]

turtles

this was a post I regret making. but what does turtles mean?

Edited

 

[erk]

Good article, @Brew12. Lots of great points. The stress reducing ideology is one I strongly follow.

I personally try to reduce stress by reducing food competition. I feed a large amount of different types of foods, including LRS or Rods frozen. I'm considering beginning to make my own frozen. I thought the fish were doing great, then about 2 months ago I started dosing live phyto every morning and things are even better. Swallowtail and Talbot damsels are spawning constantly. Laying thousands of eggs every month. The fry go to feed all the inhabitants. I have a pair of male banggai cardinals(wish it was a mated pair) that don't eat pellets or really any frozen, but they are fat. I see them eating out of the water column after lights out every evening.

 

[Lasse]

Even the largest public aquariums cannot duplicate the biodiversity and more importantly dilution that the ocean affords.

True - but you can do it better or worse. You can try to optimize the biodiversity or to decrease the biodiversity. That you can´t exactly copy the nature is not a useful defense for not trying to do it as good as possible. Its up to you. You can use the knowledge of different techniques to create as good water quality as possible. How you chose organisms, how you run your aquarium, how you use science and so on.

The article that start this thread is a very good example how you can use knowledge and give good basic information. The different point of views coming up is important. The beta glucose track was for me an eye opener why aquariums like Paul B´s, atolls and others can exist year after year.

@Brew12 I have a good opinion of you mostly from the way you conduct yourself online, answer with facts, ask for references and try to have a good discussion.

And all other friends out there - stay on track - please do not let the thread derail.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[RCeiver]

You have a bad opinion of me because you have an agenda regarding prophylactic QT. In your article review you put words in your Vet's mouth that, if true, could cost him his license. I highly doubt he is an open supporter of unsupervised use of antibiotics.

EXCEPT I NEVER SAID THAT I GOT UNSUPERVISED MEDS FROM MY VET! Is this what you do? You just outright lie about what people wrote in an effort to shame them or something?

Below is what I actually wrote, in which I don’t say anything about getting unsupervised meds from my vet:

Prefer to listen to my vet who has a completely different view. He went to school for 8 years for veterinary medicine.

Ich kills fish all the time. These boards are filled with those stories. It’s pretty insane to think that fish with ich parasites are “healthy” and that confined glass boxes filled with parasites are somehow “healthy environments”

I get that many people are successful in keeping tanks with ich in them. But be honest about it. You are just managing a disease that is insanely simple to cure.

I’ve also seen tanks that managed ich for months or years and then one day They are completely wiped out by one small trigger that brings on a ich-pocalypse. That’s not healthy either.

Be honest thread.

 

[RCeiver]

True - but you can do it better or worse. You can try to optimize the biodiversity or to decrease the biodiversity. That you can´t exactly copy the nature is not a useful defense for not trying to do it as good as possible. Its up to you. You can use the knowledge of different techniques to create as good water quality as possible. How you chose organisms, how you run your aquarium, how you use science and so on.

The article that start this thread is a very good example how you can use knowledge and give good basic information. The different point of views coming up is important. The beta glucose track was for me an eye opener why aquariums like Paul B´s, atolls and others can exist year after year.

@Brew12 I have a good opinion of you mostly from the way you conduct yourself online, answer with facts, ask for references and try to have a good discussion.

And all other friends out there - stay on track - please do not let the thread derail.

Sincerely Lasse

You have to be kidding.

 

[Lasse]

No

Sincerely Lasse

 

[RCeiver]

No

Sincerely Lasse

See post above. You may want to reconsider.

 

[Brew12]

EXCEPT I NEVER SAID THAT I GOT UNSUPERVISED MEDS FROM MY VET! Is this what you do? You just outright lie about what people wrote in an effort to shame them or something?

You need to work on your honesty. Why did you even mention your vet? What is his "completely different view"? You make it look like he supports "curing ich" without Veteranarian support. If that isn't what you meant and that your vet does believe that all fish medications should be used under the supervision of a vet than you should have been more clear. I wouldn't call that easy.

I will point out that this article was submitted to Seawitch before she stopped supporting articles. She had concerns about it and asked a marine biologist and an MD to review it. The only change that was requested was a clarification that the measles vaccine is only "live" in a person for a short period of time. They endorsed the rest of the content. As did two other marine biologists that I asked to look it over.
I'll respectfully ask that if you object to anything in my article, cite a research paper or something similar to back up your objection. I used the reference information from 3 colleges and well over 40 scientific papers while I was writing it. I don't think asking for a single legitimate source is a burden if you are going to make the claim it is wrong.

 

[Lasse]

See post above. You may want to reconsider

No

Sincerely Lasse

 

[RCeiver]

You need to work on your honesty. Why did you even mention your vet? What is his "completely different view"? You make it look like he supports "curing ich" without Veteranarian support. If that isn't what you meant and that your vet does believe that all fish medications should be used under the supervision of a vet than you should have been more clear. I wouldn't call that easy.

I will point out that this article was submitted to Seawitch before she stopped supporting articles. She had concerns about it and asked a marine biologist and an MD to review it. The only change that was requested was a clarification that the measles vaccine is only "live" in a person for a short period of time. They endorsed the rest of the content. As did two other marine biologists that I asked to look it over.
I'll respectfully ask that if you object to anything in my article, cite a research paper or something similar to back up your objection. I used the reference information from 3 colleges and well over 40 scientific papers while I was writing it. I don't think asking for a single legitimate source is a burden if you are going to make the claim it is wrong.

Glad she had concerns about it, but that still doesn’t address that you completely LIED about what I wrote in the review. I’ll wait for the apology.

 

[Brew12]

Glad she had concerns about it, but that still doesn’t address that you completely LIED about what I wrote in the review. I’ll wait for the apology.

You'll have to explain what you were trying to imply your vet disagreed with. I'll stand by your comments looking like your vet recommends treating fish outside of their practice. Otherwise, in context, your comments makes no sense.

If its easier for you, PM the name and practice of your vet and I'll have this conversation with them. If an apology is warranted, I'll gladly offer it. I don't know your name so you will remain completely anonymous. I enjoy talking to vets and marine biologists about fish health. I had lunch with 2 of them this past Saturday to talk about a bacterial issue they were having in an aquarium they work at.

I've talked to 3 of my local vets about sourcing CP and all 3 of them said they wouldn't prescribe it for prophylactic use or for Ich because it isn't virulent enough to warrant aggressive treatment. 2 of the 3 did offer to write a script for it if I brought in fish with velvet symptoms.

Otherwise, I'll wait for some scientific backing for your unfounded attacks and await your apology.

 

[Paul Sands]

Have I accomplished what was previously thought to be impossible? Absolutely no comments on an article about fish health?

I think you accomplished getting the argument you clearly wanted.

You'll have to explain what you were trying to imply your vet disagreed with. I'll stand by your comments looking like your vet recommends treating fish outside of their practice. Otherwise, in context, your comments makes no sense.

If you read that comment and somehow inferred that the vet prescribed unsupervised meds, you are completely delusional. The words prescription or medication were literally never mentioned at all. Seems like you want an argument and you’ll just make up things that people didn’t say in order to accomplish that.

 

[Brew12]

If you read that comment and somehow inferred that the vet prescribed unsupervised meds, you are completely delusional. The words prescription or medication were literally never mentioned at all. Seems like you want an argument and you’ll just make up things that people didn’t say in order to accomplish that.

If he wasn't citing his vet as backing up his views, why did he mention his vet at all?

How do you think his vet proposed to

You are just managing a disease that is insanely simple to cure.

The fact that the word prescription was missing and the term simple was used is actually the problem. That doesn't imply proper veteranarian oversite. That would make curing a disease that is easy to manage a pain imo.

But I'll go into it with an open mind. If his vet really does feel this way it will be an easy conversation to have and I'll apologize. Otherwise, I'll stand by it looking like he mentioned his vet to provide false legitimacy to statements his vet actually wouldn't support.

 

[Paul Sands]

If he wasn't citing his vet as backing up his views, why did he mention his vet at all?

How do you think his vet proposed to (cure ich)

I cure ich using two buckets, two heaters, and two HOB filters. I didn’t realize you needed a prescription for them.

 

[Humblefish]

I've talked to 3 of my local vets about sourcing CP and all 3 of them said they wouldn't prescribe it for prophylactic use or for Ich because it isn't virulent enough to warrant aggressive treatment. 2 of the 3 did offer to write a script for it if I brought in fish with velvet symptoms.

Then your vets' understanding of Crytpo is at odds with advice given by the largest Veterinary Compounding Pharmacy in the country: https://www.diamondbackdrugs.com/chloroquine/

Are these aquatic veterinarians?? Or regular vets who got 1 day of aquatic curriculum? (This isn't me taking a shot at them. It's what I've been told by numerous veterinarians.)

 

[Brew12]

I cure ich using two buckets, two heaters, and two HOB filters. I didn’t realize you needed a prescription for them.

Maybe you do. I know from previous posts that he doesn't.

BTW... I'm still waiting for your proof that most fish kept by hobbyists don't benefit from Beta glucan but I'm guess it doesn't exist.

Just like your preferred definition of disease from the WHO doesn't exist.

And just like neither of you have managed to post any scientifically valid references to discredit anything in this article.

 

[Lasse]

In your article review you put words in your Vet's mouth that, if true, could cost him his license. I highly doubt he is an open supporter of unsupervised use of antibiotics.

EXCEPT I NEVER SAID THAT I GOT UNSUPERVISED MEDS FROM MY VET!

Posters capital

I do not get this. What I understand of the English language Brew just state that "you put words in your Vet´s mouth" and that he highly doubt that he is an open.........

He has not say that you get unsupervised meds from your vet - instead he has say that he highly doubt that. That´s plain English in my book.

Sincerely Lasse