whats your thoughts on LiveAquaria and Divers Den

[Rython]

If you think about it, DD and LA must have Ich, Velvet, and Uronema in their systems, as would any large volume retailer. Because once in, you can't get rid of Uronema, and to get rid of ich and velvet you would have to go without fish for almost 2 months. Running low levels of copper might keep the symptoms under control, but that isn't the same as eradication. So if you think they don't have all three diseases in their systems then you believe either:

(1) of the hundreds of thousands of fish that come through their systems, none ever had those diseases
(2) they prophylactic treat for these diseases with 100% success rate (their website says they don't)
(3) they periodically run whole systems fallow for months, and in the case of Uronema, go even further and drain/sanitize their systems and then re-fill and cycle them.

#2 and #3 are wildly unfeasable for them or any large volume retailer. I consider any fish that makes it through their system (or any other - don't want to single out LA here) without picking up one of those diseases very lucky.

 

[tiggs]

I think a big part of fixing the landscape of marine fish disease is going to be the advancement of captive bred species and the vendors that choose to only sell specimens of this nature. If you think about it, a breeding system that's never been exposed to a wild caught fish will never have velvet/crypto. If fish are going directly from a system like this to a retailer that only deals with captive bred fish and has never had a wild caught fish in their systems, the same rule applies.

I'm kinda hoping in the next few years, we see an influx of retailers doing one of two things..

1. Offering a full QT period for every specimen they sell (shout out to TSM Corals for making huge strides in this area and really setting a great example)
2. Only offering captive bred species, once the list of fish that are captive bred has grown

With that being said, as consumers, we should all be prepared to pay a bit more per fish for either of these things. There's definitely a cost premium associated with it, but it's well worth it in my eyes.

 

[ca1ore]

Last month I ordered the coral from DD and they shipped the coral with cloudy dirty water.

I doubt it. Corals really don't like to be shipped, and a percentage of them are just about shot upon arrival. More likely water was just fine when shipped but the coral 'fouled' it during transit. Although I don't do online coral orders very much, I just had this happen with a piece from DD. Water was cloudy with various expell-ate and the coral itself mostly dead.

 

[Forsaken77]

Agreed. I've been at this for close to two decades and the quality drop in the past 2-3 years has been something else. Velvet/crypto/etc always existed, but never quite at this volume.

One area that I think we currently have it wrong is automatically treating every new fish with an entire arsenal of strong medications, whether they're sick or not. I'm a strong supporter of QT, but my preference is an extended close observation period in a dedicated QT tank to start off. IMO, if we're really trying to do what's in the best interest of the fish, then we'd take into consideration that they've likely been exposed to a severe temp spike, hyposalinity, ammonia burn, and at least one copper treatment in the weeks/days prior to arriving in the mail. If they show any signs of disease at all during this time, then they get the treatment, followed by another couple weeks of close observation post-treatment.

I understand the logic behind treating everything no matter what and no doubt many fish are saved that would end up dead due to disease, but I also think we've gotten too cavalier with the phrase "they didn't make it through QT" and just chalking it up as a loss. Whether we want to admit it or not, there are definitely many fish that are very stressed from the reasons mentioned above, but disease free and end up dead because of proactively exposing them to an arsenal of strong medications and in many cases, not doing so at correct levels. I'm certainly not knocking anyone that's proactively treating and I completely understand the rationale behind it with the current landscape of fish disease. I just think we could do better by exercising some patience and extending our QT timelines so we can do what's in the best interest of the fish each time.

Just a quick note on how I QT, and haven't lost any fish IN QT at all, though I buy them locally and only buy what I deem to be a healthy specimen.

I put the fish in it's QT tank for roughly 3 days without treatment so it can acclimate, start eating and feeling more comfortable in its new habitat. Then I start the rounds of Cupramine, Prazi (with extra air pumped in), then an antibacterial one at a time, with a few days between each med. The fish have never outwardly exhibited stress when treating with any med so far for me. All were treated at proper levels with slow increases and testing multiple times per day. Then after treatment, I do a 100% water change on the small tank and let the fish be for another 2 weeks for observation. I also only use a QT when needed. So I set up a tank with all new water, change water out daily if I have to (based on ammonia readings) and compensate for the meds I just removed in the water change.

If someone just goes by how the fish looks, and that it's eating, couldn't the fish still be carrying disease, just in a more slight, or manageable degree? Some fish you would never even know had disease by looking at them. It's only after introducing the new fish to a DT that you notice other fish exhibiting symptoms of infection, though the new addition may still appear fine.

Don't get me wrong... I've done the "dump right in" approach as well. Until I came across a situation like I described above. Granted, it's on the individual to maintain therapeutic levels while not over medicating. I guess some folks assume there's some leeway in what the therapeutic levels can be and what a fish will tolerate.

So how would you truly know 100% that you're not introducing some pathogen or parasite into your tank by not treating the fish? Or at the very least, feeling comfortable that you did a proper job to eliminate any possible threat.

I agree 100% that not every fish is sick. But with the odds highly stacked against that notion, wouldn't it be better to be safe than sorry by treating regardless to make sure your other tank inhabitants are safe as well? Some fish have more resistance to how a particular disease affects them, making them appear fine, but being a carrier nonetheless.

Just to be clear, I'm not question your methods. I just want to get a better understanding behind it.

 

[HotRocks]

Just a quick note on how I QT, and haven't lost any fish IN QT at all, though I buy them locally and only buy what I deem to be a healthy specimen.

I put the fish in it's QT tank for roughly 3 days without treatment so it can acclimate, start eating and feeling more comfortable in its new habitat. Then I start the rounds of Cupramine, Prazi (with extra air pumped in), then an antibacterial one at a time, with a few days between each med. The fish have never outwardly exhibited stress when treating with any med so far for me. All were treated at proper levels with slow increases and testing multiple times per day. Then after treatment, I do a 100% water change on the small tank and let the fish be for another 2 weeks for observation. I also only use a QT when needed. So I set up a tank with all new water, change water out daily if I have to (based on ammonia readings) and compensate for the meds I just removed in the water change.

If someone just goes by how the fish looks, and that it's eating, couldn't the fish still be carrying disease, just in a more slight, or manageable degree? Some fish you would never even know had disease by looking at them. It's only after introducing the new fish to a DT that you notice other fish exhibiting symptoms of infection, though the new addition may still appear fine.

Don't get me wrong... I've done the "dump right in" approach as well. Until I came across a situation like I described above. Granted, it's on the individual to maintain therapeutic levels while not over medicating. I guess some folks assume there's some leeway in what the therapeutic levels can be and what a fish will tolerate.

So how would you truly know 100% that you're not introducing some pathogen or parasite into your tank by not treating the fish? Or at the very least, feeling comfortable that you did a proper job to eliminate any possible threat.

I agree 100% that not every fish is sick. But with the odds highly stacked against that notion, wouldn't it be better to be safe than sorry by treating regardless to make sure your other tank inhabitants are safe as well? Some fish have more resistance to how a particular disease affects them, making them appear fine, but being a carrier nonetheless.

Just to be clear, I'm not question your methods. I just want to get a better understanding behind it.

I agree with what you are saying/doing. I follow a very similar protocol. Except, IMO I do not think it's necessary to treat fish prophylactically with antibiotics. I only do so if there is a bacterial infection present.

 

[tiggs]

Just a quick note on how I QT, and haven't lost any fish IN QT at all, though I buy them locally and only buy what I deem to be a healthy specimen.

I put the fish in it's QT tank for roughly 3 days without treatment so it can acclimate, start eating and feeling more comfortable in its new habitat. Then I start the rounds of Cupramine, Prazi (with extra air pumped in), then an antibacterial one at a time, with a few days between each med. The fish have never outwardly exhibited stress when treating with any med so far for me. All were treated at proper levels with slow increases and testing multiple times per day. Then after treatment, I do a 100% water change on the small tank and let the fish be for another 2 weeks for observation. I also only use a QT when needed. So I set up a tank with all new water, change water out daily if I have to (based on ammonia readings) and compensate for the meds I just removed in the water change.

If someone just goes by how the fish looks, and that it's eating, couldn't the fish still be carrying disease, just in a more slight, or manageable degree? Some fish you would never even know had disease by looking at them. It's only after introducing the new fish to a DT that you notice other fish exhibiting symptoms of infection, though the new addition may still appear fine.

Don't get me wrong... I've done the "dump right in" approach as well. Until I came across a situation like I described above. Granted, it's on the individual to maintain therapeutic levels while not over medicating. I guess some folks assume there's some leeway in what the therapeutic levels can be and what a fish will tolerate.

So how would you truly know 100% that you're not introducing some pathogen or parasite into your tank by not treating the fish? Or at the very least, feeling comfortable that you did a proper job to eliminate any possible threat.

I agree 100% that not every fish is sick. But with the odds highly stacked against that notion, wouldn't it be better to be safe than sorry by treating regardless to make sure your other tank inhabitants are safe as well? Some fish have more resistance to how a particular disease affects them, making them appear fine, but being a carrier nonetheless.

Just to be clear, I'm not question your methods. I just want to get a better understanding behind it.

The key aspect of my method is that I do a 4-6 week period of very close observation in a small and dedicated tank. If a fish has any type of parasitic disease, there will definitely be symptoms by that point. There's simply not enough space, water volume, or hosts in the tank for the parasites to spread out and only affect the fish at a tolerable level. I guess you could argue that the full life cycle of parasites without a host is 75+ days and technically they could be present but choose not to attack, but that would seem highly unlikely and against the very means of their survival and nature.

One thing I want to point out is that I'm not knocking anyone that chooses to treat in the proactive manner, because it's obviously much better than the typical alternative. Many fish are saved that would otherwise be goners. I just feel we (myself included, at times) don't always fully consider what a fish has probably been through very recently and I want to provide the smoothest transition possible, while also keeping disease out of my system. If I can avoid medicating a fish that isn't sick and even slightly improve their transition, then I'd personally rather go that route and exercise patience for a few extra weeks. The other aspect is eliminating possible user error and system failures. We (myself included, again) are capable of making boneheaded errors, the means we use for testing are capable of being off, and the medications we use are capable of being inconsistent. At the end of the day, I'm not saying I believe the proactive treatment of everything is incorrect or wrong in any way. Disease is something we all have to deal with and be mindful of. I'm just saying I think we could slightly improve on what's considered current best practice and try to save that additional small percentage of disease-free fish that simply don't make it through QT from a rough medication round. That's all.

 

[Forsaken77]

I agree with what you are saying/doing. I follow a very similar protocol. Except, IMO I do not think it's necessary to treat fish prophylactically with antibiotics. I only do so if there is a bacterial infection present.

No, it's not necessary at all. I didn't used to use antibiotics in QT. I recently started more for internal bacterial problems than external infections. I don't treat the tank, I use food.

I get that using antibiotics can build a resistance to the medication and make certain infections harder to treat in the future, but aside of QT, I've actually never had to reintroduce antibiotics to any of my fish after QT (in the past 4 years anyway). Just figure I may as well cover it while the fish is already being treated.

 

[Big G]

No, it's not necessary at all. I didn't used to use antibiotics in QT. I recently started more for internal bacterial problems than external infections. I don't treat the tank, I use food.

I get that using antibiotics can build a resistance to the medication and make certain infections harder to treat in the future, but aside of QT, I've actually never had to reintroduce antibiotics to any of my fish after QT (in the past 4 years anyway). Just figure I may as well cover it while the fish is already being treated.

The only fish I treat with antibiotics prophylactically would be the Copperband Butterfly. Immediate dosing of NFG would be a wise choice of action with this particular fish. Once the "red spot/sore" shows up its usually already too late to save the fish.

 

[HotRocks]

No, it's not necessary at all. I didn't used to use antibiotics in QT. I recently started more for internal bacterial problems than external infections. I don't treat the tank, I use food.

I get that using antibiotics can build a resistance to the medication and make certain infections harder to treat in the future, but aside of QT, I've actually never had to reintroduce antibiotics to any of my fish after QT (in the past 4 years anyway). Just figure I may as well cover it while the fish is already being treated.

Agree, food soaking to treat internal parasites/worms is a must, especially with Wrasse!

I misunderstood you a bit there.

 

[Reef Box]

The only fish I treat with antibiotics prophylactically would be the Copperband Butterfly. Immediate dosing of NFG would be a wise choice of action with this particular fish. Once the "red spot/sore" shows up its usually already too late to save the fish.

Big G I’m a little slow. Can you help me out with NFG?

 

[Dr. Reef]

my experience has been 50/50 with them. i have had some fish arrive well and some not so well. most all tangs arrive with ich and most expensive one die soon. I am in a heated email exchange over my last order. i ordered a maxima clam ORA through DD and they shipped it with 2 small finger looking rock that it had attached its foot and byssal threads to. instead of removing the clam off the rock they shipped it with the rock and with shaking around in transport threads got broken and some part of the foot arrived damaged. I sent them email with pic of the clam and detached threads while i had it drip acclimating.
To my surprise they sent me an email claiming i have had high losses and they want to know my knowledge and my parameters so they can diagnose the problem. It was totally uncalled for and i find that very offensive. i did not claim clam as a loss, i reported tick poor packing and handling from the people in their facility and educated then on how a clam should be shipped. They turned around and make it look like its customers fault for having such losses.
By the way i email all losses with pics to them.
I referred them in my email to this thread and many other on different websites where tons of people are unhappy with their specimens.
Only thing i have to give them credit for is CUSTOMER SERVICE. that department always listens to what happened and issue refund/credit on file or replacement right away.
Couple of my orders arrived 100% dead on arrival from 2 different facilities. i opened the first box and all dead, called LA customer service and while having her on the phone i opened second box to find all dead as well. Lately i've had nothing but sick infected fish with very poor survival rate from them. my 2 cents.

 

[Big G]

Big G I’m a little slow. Can you help me out with NFG?

NFG is Nitrofuracine Green Powder. Highly recommend its use for bacterial infections, especially gram negative infections, which can kill rather quickly. It tints the water green a bit, and you need to do water changes frequently. But it works really well, especially for those "red sores" common seen on butterfly fish and some other similar fish. Some local fish stores carry it in stock, but you usually have to buy it on the internet. Hope this helps a bit.

 

[Reef Box]

my experience has been 50/50 with them. i have had some fish arrive well and some not so well. most all tangs arrive with ich and most expensive one die soon. I am in a heated email exchange over my last order. i ordered a maxima clam ORA through DD and they shipped it with 2 small finger looking rock that it had attached its foot and byssal threads to. instead of removing the clam off the rock they shipped it with the rock and with shaking around in transport threads got broken and some part of the foot arrived damaged. I sent them email with pic of the clam and detached threads while i had it drip acclimating.
To my surprise they sent me an email claiming i have had high losses and they want to know my knowledge and my parameters so they can diagnose the problem. It was totally uncalled for and i find that very offensive. i did not claim clam as a loss, i reported **** poor packing and handling from the people in their facility and educated then on how a clam should be shipped.

I had the exact same issue with a maxima I purchased from DD. Arrived in a bag with no foot a several small rocks bouncing around in the bag. It died within the week.

 

[Reef Box]

NFG is Nitrofuracine Green Powder. Highly recommend its use for bacterial infections, especially gram negative infections, which can kill rather quickly. It tints the water green a bit, and you need to do water changes frequently. But it works really well, especially for those "red sores" common seen on butterfly fish and some other similar fish. Some local fish stores carry it in stock, but you usually have to buy it on the internet. Hope this helps a bit.

Thank you. I will definitely be doing some reading up and adding this to my arsenal!

 

[Norcalreef]

Your LFS sources fish form the same places as online, but it’s one more system full of parasites for them to be exposed to, one extra stop before reaching home. Something to think about. Some LFS do a great job and I can justify buying from them despite this because they get the fish eating or something along those lines. But few of those LFS exist here in central Indiana.

My thoughts exactly. I would much rather my fish go directly from supplier to my qt then spend an unknown amount of time in the small over crowded tanks at the lfs. I live in Sacramento and have 4 lfs every single 1 has tanks full of dead fish.
I bought 7 chromis from lfs they all died within 2 weeks. I have ordered 2 clowns from Sustainable Aquatic, 1 Randall’s anthias, 1 central pacific anthias, 4 ignitus anthias, a Royal gramma, 2 blue star leopard wrasse, 3 pj cardinals, and 1 fathead sunburst anthias from saltwater fish.
Out of those 15 fish I lost 1 leopard wrasse, 1 doa captive bred pj Cardinal, and 1 ignitus. So 3 out of 15 fish died when ordered online opposed to 100% from lfs.
I also try to order all my fish from LA or another CA supplier. I’m only like a 8 hour drive from LA so shipping stress is much less than if I still lived on the east coast.

 

[Reef Box]

NFG is Nitrofuracine Green Powder. Highly recommend its use for bacterial infections, especially gram negative infections, which can kill rather quickly. It tints the water green a bit, and you need to do water changes frequently. But it works really well, especially for those "red sores" common seen on butterfly fish and some other similar fish. Some local fish stores carry it in stock, but you usually have to buy it on the internet. Hope this helps a bit.

Any recommendations on a brand or trusted site that carries NFG? Maybe a pic of what I'm looking for? TIA

 

[HotRocks]

Any recommendations on a brand or trusted site that carries NFG? Maybe a pic of what I'm looking for? TIA

Here you go!

http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html

 

[Reef Box]

Here you go!

http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html

Thanks @HotRocks!

 

[paphater]

I've had pretty good luck with DD. Never tried LA. The one issue I had with DD was when my Quyoi parrot arrived with a deformed fin. The fish was perfectly healthy but I was ticked that a $200 fish came with an obvious blemish that wasn't listed. I emailed support on the day I received it and was basically given the run around until the 14 week time frame passed. On the 15th day they emailed me and told me there was nothing they could do. Health wise all my fish have been great, even my Moorish Idol.

 

[B-ridge]

This makes me nervous. I recently placed a order from live aquaria that came last week. The fish they sent me haven’t ate. I’ve tried multiple foods to see what they would eat. I emailed them and haven’t heard anything back from them eventhough everyone claims there customer service is so great. I happened to look on there site and they have a fish I really want on sale. It’s kind of a expensive fish($300) and I’m now not sure I’m willing to take the chance. If there giving people the run around for 14 days until guarantee is no longer good. I just recently went through this with another online vendor who waited and gave me the run around for 21 days which voided my warranty. Don’t wanna go through this again