Why are some people anti-waterchanges?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Reef moonshiners looks pretty cool. I would assume that is a viable option to waterchanges. Tough to argue the science.

lol

I haven’t found it tough to argue.

 

[FrugalReefer]

I agree, after your tank matures, you don't really need to do a water change just monitor the chemistry and add as needed. My tank is 13 years old and I haven't done water changes on a regular basis in 10 years. Maybe I average one 2-3 times a year usually if I sand the acrylic tank down on the inside to clean it up.

Here is my tank at 13 years:


I dose trace elements and even Nitrate instead of water changes.

Very nice. If you don’t mind me asking, where would your nitrates be at if you didn’t dose it? My nitrates are somewhere between 0-2 and phosphates at 0.03 tested with Salifert.

 

[Icryhard]

You are far better off taking other forms of filtration off the tank or increasing your import than stopping the water change routine

I agree, but that wasn’t the original exchange we had.

 

[michealprater]

lol

I haven’t found it tough to argue.

Please elaborate, I have just been dabbling at considering it and definitely dont want to invest in something not worthy. If you prefer not to do it here, DM will be just fine. It doesn't have to be a ton of info either, readers digest version will work for me.

 

[d2mini]

Reef moonshiners looks pretty cool. I would assume that is a viable option to waterchanges. Tough to argue the science.

I do moonshiners.
This is all about keeping all major and minor parameters at optimum levels, a feat which is extremely hard to do via water changes unless again we go back to discussing near 100% water changes. And levels will vary from brand to brand.

But moonshiners will not do what we also use water changes for and that's nutrient export.

 

[michealprater]

There is actually a many-page thread that does show that the science for ICP based dosing is mostly supposition and faith, that hobby-grade test kits might be better for most things and that the elements that cannot be tested with hobby-grade test kits have no proven set level to keep or to dose.

I have seen in thousands of threads, "its the test kit"... or "its the ICP test".... etc. What I gather is we have no real reliable ways to test. Without that, most of this is moot.

 

[jda]

I have seen in thousands of thread, its the test kit... or its the ICP test.... etc. What I gather is we have no real reliable ways to test. Without that, most of this is moot.

You can read through the thread below and see what might work for your personality and goals. There are tests and results, fanboys, etc. For me, I have seen too many methods like this come and go - it is usually the increased focus and desire that matters, not the method. If that focus and desire stays, then the method can go, and usually does, but the results remain.

As far as test kit - I test for alk and that is all. I also change water and dose iron for chaeto. I use a CaRx and feed my fish, so the large elements from the CaRx are good if the alk is good and there is unknown type of traces that appear to be enough from the fish food and water changes.

HOBBY GRADE TEST KITS CAN OUTPERFORM ICP MEASUREMENTS…REALLY??

Is there a potential that filtering the sample is removing larger size pollutants that might be important to know? That's a question that only the user can answer, but no individual molecules are filtered out by a 0.2 micron filter unless they simply stick to the filter. The pores are sized...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[EugeneVan]

If doing water changes pushes you into poverty, it’s probably not the best hobby to be in. Not gate keeping here just saying it’s not financially smart to be in an expensive hobby if you don’t have a lot of disposable income

Just like if you own a muscle car and you are complaining about the fuel cost, how expensive it cost for the brake change..... You are in the wrong hobby

 

[Subsea]

There is actually a many-page thread that does show that the science for ICP based dosing is mostly supposition and faith, that hobby-grade test kits might be better for most things and that the elements that cannot be tested with hobby-grade test kits have no proven set level to keep or to dose.

Ironically, I have unopened test kits with 10 year old expiration date.

If I need to know basic water parameters I send water to a regional agriculture lab in Nebraska:

Household & Commercial Water Analysis​

W-5	HOUSEHOLD COMPLETE MINERAL TEST	$32.50
	Bicarbonate, Calcium, Carbonate, Chloride, Fluoride, Iron, Magnesium, Nitrate, Potassium, Sodium, Sulfate, Total Hardness (CaCO3), Total Alkalinity (CaCO3), Electrical Conductivity, pH, Est. Total Dissolved Solids, Cation/Anion Balance For an additional fee, you can order a convenient kit that includes the Household Complete Mineral Test, prepaid postage, a clean sample bottle, and necessary packaging. To order the kit, click here.

This hobby could be much easier on newbies if they were not influenced to go hi tech SPS dominate.

 

[Raul-7]

You do know rivers and streams replenish water that has evaporated no remove water from oceans. Besides plants, sand/mud, rocks and corals what other layers of filtration are there? There is just a ton of all of those because of the amount of water in our oceans.

1. Key is water is moving, never static.
2. Fish swimming in area A will constantly be receiving fresher saltwater all the time; the water is constantly moving. Not static like it is within an aquarium. Even organisms living in tidepools; will get fresh saltwater once the tide rises.

 

[FreshSaltyGuy]

1. Key is water is moving, never static.
2. Fish swimming in area A will constantly be receiving fresher saltwater all the time; the water is constantly moving. Not static like it is within an aquarium. Even organisms living in tidepools; will get fresh saltwater once the tide rises.

Yes that is why we have pumps to move water to a sump with a huge Fuge and an ATO to replenish freshwater as it evaporateS, and skimmers and all that fun stuff...again try to get as close to nature as possible....will we ever get there...I believe so....it just takes practice.

 

[Subsea]

1. Key is water is moving, never static.
2. Fish swimming in area A will constantly be receiving fresher saltwater all the time; the water is constantly moving. Not static like it is within an aquarium. Even organisms living in tidepools; will get fresh saltwater once the tide rises.

“Not static like it is within an aquarium.“

WHAT!!!!!!!
I circulate 40 volumes per hour in 75G display.

 

[FreshSaltyGuy]

“Not static like it is within an aquarium.“

WHAT! I circulate 40 volumes per hour in 75G display.

Exactly lol

 

[Raul-7]

“Not static like it is within an aquarium.“

WHAT!!!!!!!
I circulate 40 volumes per hour in 75G display.

Exactly lol

I know static means not moving, but in my context it means being refreshed. Natural waterways have water that is not only moving, but being refreshed.

Water in an aquarium may have high movement, but without waterchanges it is static.

 

[FreshSaltyGuy]

I know static means not moving, but in my context it means being refreshed. Natural waterways have water that is not only moving, but being refreshed.

Water in an aquarium may have high movement, but without waterchanges it is static.

So ATO means nothing to you?
Sorry can't convince me I ran a planted tank with a decent Bioload for years and not a single water change.

 

[Reefer Matt]

I just made a promo video on youtube for water changes with this thread in mind.

 

[FreshSaltyGuy]

I just made a promo video on youtube for water changes with this thread in mind.

Share it will ya lol

 

[Reefer Matt]

Share it will ya lol

I'll pm it to ya.

 

[FreshSaltyGuy]

So all this crazy talk has me thinking even crazier on how to mimic nature. With the info from this site in mind - https://www.mbgnet.net/salt/oceans/refresh.htm
I'm wondering if there should be a separate "fuge" if you will that runs much cooler water to help get nutrient rich water and have a pump go on once a day or whatever the cycle of an ocean is and pump that colder water in there to bring rich nutrients.....yes I already know many will say it will shock your fish and kill them and corals....but will it really? Even if we do it at a slow enough rate to let's say no more than a 1 or 2 degrees drop once a day....
Hmmmmmmm things are changing in this hobby lots of untried things I believe. You heard it here first.

 

[FishTruck]

So... did we define what can only be accomplished with water changes and by no other means? I believe we are stuck on dissolved organic compounds that cannot be detected nor removed or metabolized by any means other than water changes. Is that correct?