Why are some people anti-waterchanges?

[Rick's Reviews]

How do you know that you removed all or even some of the nasties without taking both ends of pipe loose and visually inspecting said nasties.

For one my pipes are

How do you know that you removed all or even some of the nasties without taking both ends of pipe loose and visually inspecting said nasties.

'I can visually inspect'

 

[Reefkeepers Archive]

I may be mis-reading your post because it is a tiny bit confusing, so I will apologize upfront if that is the case.

If your friend is doing 100% water changes since day one on a fishbowl/vase/other unfiltered tank, then yes I suppose you are correct there. But for most of us here with sumps, filters, live rock, etc, you absolutely can do a 100% (or close to it) water change, as long as you match your parameters. The water itself doesn't contain any beneficial denitrifying bacteria. That is all on surfaces... rock, plumbing, sand, etc.

True, though large fluctuations in water parameters can be a risk. Though if it's working for you than keep doing it!

 

[Subsea]

It's eye opening to read through everyones experiences. I think that most people whom have lasting power (+5 years) are people whom truly love the hobby and are in a position to maintain the hobby and therefore an age marker on a tank is something to be proud of but not the right metric for success as a breakdown of a tank stems from a multivariant situation. I personally knew a guy who quit because the hobby became too much work and stress and he maintained beautiful SPS, LPS and softies.

As the collective experience and knowledge of hobbiest community grows, I believe that we will be moving to a more nuanced approach to water quality control with a reduction of water changes to a more approachable schedule. Even a few years ago, we had a paradigm shift from UNLS to low nutrient systems. And before that was going from metal halides to LEDs. (IMO i would love to try halides as anecdotal accounts seem to be overwhelmingly positive)

Personally, I don't think anyone has ran a true 0 water change tank but we're arguing semantics instead of intent.

The goal we should strive for is to reduce the amount of overhead in maintaining a reef tank so you can spend more time appreciating the hobby.

@Someshmuk

You summed up the jest of this long meandering thread with your last two short paragraphs.

“Personally, I don't think anyone has ran a true 0 water change tank but we're arguing semantics instead of intent. “

“The goal we should strive for is to reduce the amount of overhead in maintaining a reef tank so you can spend more time appreciating the hobby.”

 

[bakbay]

I’ll say this much… anyone who doubts a water change should try a 100% water change and observe their corals the next couple days! I’ve done this a few times with upgrades even my current display… I’ve never seen my lps so fluffy or the crazy pe my sticks showed that first week again.. I’ve slacked big time due to weather and and laziness but I’m gearing up for a large one here real soon.. the results speak for them selves.. smaller 10-30% help but the corals don’t respond like all new water.

Ok - I'm bait when I'm "less busy". I will not try this on my 150g SPS tank but can attempt this on my 60g mixed reef as an experiment. Assume that I'll match the temp, ph, and alk -- do 100% in one WC? Take the opportunity to suck out all detritus inside the tank and sump?

 

[Troylee]

Ok - I'm bait when I'm "less busy". I will not try this on my 150g SPS tank but can attempt this on my 60g mixed reef as an experiment. Assume that I'll match the temp, ph, and alk -- do 100% in one WC? Take the opportunity to suck out all detritus inside the tank and sump?

Temp is about the only thing that’s really important when doing this.. think of it this way… when you get a coral from a friend or store and put it in your tank it’s just like a water change to a coral.. the ph don’t match the alk don’t match, nothing does but temp if you float the bag which a lot of people don’t lol.. yes I’ve done 100% multiple times when I upgrade… my current tank I cleaned all the sand in buckets with tap water and threw it in my tank with my old rock and 100% new water and my corals took off!

 

[d2mini]

True, though large fluctuations in water parameters can be a risk. Though if it's working for you than keep doing it!

oh absolutely! Its a challenge to do safely. But me, i'd rather just change my measly 2 liters per day.

 

[jda]

This will be a fun thread to read in 3-5 years to see how it goes for some people.

You can go back 3-5 years and look at posts and build threads - some of which said no water change in the titles. They are all either out of the hobby or have done water changes.

This group will be no different.

 

[MnFish1]

Says most of the reefkeeping community lol, the exception is if you do those %100 water changes once every 1-2 weeks, when you have all clean/new water it restarts the cycle and excess ammonia and nitrites build up, which is why you have to wait 6 months after setting up a new tank before you can add livestock, one of my friends has a nano reef that he does a %100 water change once or twice a week, only way to remove those toxins other than waiting, of course this isn't ideal for larger reef tanks and it can kill the biodiversity and is expensive

I disagree A 100% water change does not automatically cause 'a cycle' (in fact usually it doesn't). There is no rule that one has to wait 6 months before adding livestock to an aquarium (in fact I would say the vast majority of people do not do that).

 

[d2mini]

“The water itself doesn't contain any beneficial denitrifying bacteria. That is all on surfaces... rock, plumbing, sand, etc.”

There are many other bacteria besides nitrogen fixation. Water is loaded with bacteria & micro inverts. Yes, rocks & substrate will reseed tank.

There may be pods and such, but in regard to the conversation about 100% water changes causing a cycle, a large water change will have zero effect on your tank's cycle. It won't need to be reseeded just because you swapped out your water. For the same reason, i would not bother to re-use water from an old tank in a new tank for any other reason than you are trying to match parameters or save some money on salt for a large tank.

 

[Subsea]

I’ll say this much… anyone who doubts a water change should try a 100% water change and observe their corals the next couple days! I’ve done this a few times with upgrades even my current display… I’ve never seen my lps so fluffy or the crazy pe my sticks showed that first week again.. I’ve slacked big time due to weather and and laziness but I’m gearing up for a large one here real soon.. the results speak for them selves.. smaller 10-30% help but the corals don’t respond like all new water.

Really.

Not knowing what’s in your display tank, I am glad that works for you.

If I did that in this tank, flame scallop & sea apple would starve. Because this tank is heavy with ornamental sponges and NPS corals, it would create a serious upset.

 

[MnFish1]

“The water itself doesn't contain any beneficial denitrifying bacteria. That is all on surfaces... rock, plumbing, sand, etc.”

There are many other bacteria besides nitrogen fixation. Water is loaded with bacteria & micro inverts. Yes, rocks & substrate will reseed tank.

The point is - you can do a 100% water change with no long-term detriment. Most of the bacteria in the tank do not live in the substrate/rock/living things. Note - I'm not recommending a 100% water change - but - saying it does something terrible is also untrue?

 

[MnFish1]

Really.

Not knowing what’s in your display tank, I am glad that works for you.

If I did that in this tank, flame scallop & sea apple would starve. Because this tank is heavy with ornamental sponges and NPS corals, it would create a serious upset.

The doubling time of bacteria is so high - that I doubt anything would starve with a 100% water change. Now - If you're doing it every 2 days - thats another story - filter feeders need to eat as well

 

[Subsea]

There may be pods and such, but in regard to the conversation about 100% water changes causing a cycle, a large water change will have zero effect on your tank's cycle. It won't need to be reseeded just because you swapped out your water. For the same reason, i would not bother to re-use water from an old tank in a new tank for any other reason than you are trying to match parameters or save some money on salt for a large tank.

Reef inhabitants do not exist in a stable enviroment. Deep water upwelings bring large temperature fluctuations as well as drastic chemical fluctuations. I lived on the ocean for 30 years. We fished 100 miles offshore at the intersection of blue & green water and observed fish congregating at the mixing zone.

 

[MnFish1]

Ok - I'm bait when I'm "less busy". I will not try this on my 150g SPS tank but can attempt this on my 60g mixed reef as an experiment. Assume that I'll match the temp, ph, and alk -- do 100% in one WC? Take the opportunity to suck out all detritus inside the tank and sump?

Post before and after pictures....

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

correct. I might or might not die today as well, even though I live a healthy life and all the signs show me that I’m not in any danger whatsoever. There is a moment we must make a conclusion. unless it’s our job or we’re willing to pay money to investigate. I prefer to believe the company/companies which make this, may it be snake oil or not. I assume they did their work. I also assume and accept that active carbon does crazy stuff and should save me from all sorts of stuff if I wear a gas mask. I mean, it might or might not. However until the “might not” part, I’ll stick to what I’ve read, until someone can show me new sources which point out something new.

Which company do you believe claims that their products remove organic toxins from seawater?

I’m quite confident not a single one ever measured such a thing.

 

[MnFish1]

Reef inhabitants do not exist in a stable enviroment. Deep water upwelings bring large temperature fluctuations as well as drastic chemical fluctuations. I lived on the ocean for 30 years. We fished 100 miles offshore at the intersection of blue & green water and observed fish congregating at the mixing zone.

Curious - why do you suppose then that everyone (most people) here preach stability above everything?

 

[d2mini]

Reef inhabitants do not exist in a stable enviroment. Deep water upwelings bring large temperature fluctuations as well as drastic chemical fluctuations. I lived on the ocean for 30 years. We fished 100 miles offshore at the intersection of blue & green water and observed fish congregating at the mixing zone.

Sorry, i'm missing your point?

 

[Subsea]

The doubling time of bacteria is so high - that I doubt anything would starve with a 100% water change. Now - If you're doing it every 2 days - thats another story - filter feeders need to eat as well

Not all bacteria are the same. Nitrification bacteria double in 20 minutes while denitrification bacteria take 16 hours to double in population.

Curious - why do you suppose then that everyone (most people) here preach stability above everything?

Tribal instincts. It’s safe and you don’t have to understand anything. Just do it.

 

[Subsea]

Sorry, i'm missing your point?

The point is that reef habitants don’t need stability.

Oceaneering 101. Dynamic Equilibrium

 

[YOYOYOReefer]

We go thru about 12-14 buckets a month of salt , changing water for decades. Both our ups driver and fed ex drivers have pointed out this thread to me.