Why cant u keep sps?

[ycnibrc]

While I do agree bacteria are important, the one item to keep catching my eye is how some of you feed multiple times a day. Am I to presume that you don't have a sand bed?

I do just a thin 1” sand bed. Zeovit always recommend sand for more bacteria surface area

 

[BOWHUNTER4250]

What Perfect thread, but you need a "SICK SPS" PATIENT to examine, diagnose, and hopefully cure.

I'm a perfect SPS Failure.

I've been reefing for about 25+ years. Sure everyone has rough starts.

So let's say last 10 years, I established a pretty stable Mixed BUT (((NO SPS))) 90 GAL SYSTEM. ** SUCCESSFULL *

In case you question what degree of success/experience.... this is my mixed tank. (one of many phases, as it has outgrown, so I've pruned and replace stuff). All started from tiny Frags/single Heads, each colony.

And I actually almost DO NOTHING!!! Sump is a hollow Rubbermaid with Skimmer. Water Changes were monthly or every other Month (now daily with Auto Water changer).
Lot's of VERY OLD LIVE ROCK, so I guess BACTERIA. (I never added any extra rock for 20 years)


But over last 5-7 year, my SPS Attempts (2nd 110G TANK **SPS ONLY** NOT SHOWN) has been Total Failures. One after the other.

Lots of Frags...I get so far (and on a few rare attempt, done pretty good) then SPS start degrading.
MANY TIMES I bought new "Healthy" Frags and there is damage within 4-6 weeks. They get worse, and get tossed.
Some of my Veteran (Less sensitive) SPS hang in there with Damage.

Restarted (With same old Live rock) the 110G SPS tank two years ago after a house flood (not fish tank related), and it did pretty good for about 1 years. Then again. BUST!

I'll admit, being busy with 3 Kids, or the yearly vacation/accident contributed to some of the downfalls.
KIDS now grown up so last year is finally SANITY to Take Care of my SPS tank.

Still I think I keep coming up with Excuses for my SPS failures, but there has to be a CORE REASON.

If anyone wants to know more my SPS tank should be Perfect for SPS (At least I think so)

15 year OLD LIVE ROCKS, , some Dead CaribSea Added over time.

Good Resonable Load of Fish (8x), and I feed them 4-6 times a days.

I'm an Computer Systems engineer so I keep adding more and more automation, and accuracy.

-> Daily Auto Water 1% Changes (using Tropic Marin Pro Salt), or =30% WC a month.
-> Perfect T5/LED lighting (Fully Programmable) PAR around 300-350 at Top of Rock Scape Level, 120-180 Tank Bottom.
-> Flow Random/Powerful ( Sea Swirl + Fully Programmable MP60,Gyre XF150, 4x other Jeabos, and would be Crazy to Turn to Max and hurt fish (MP 60, Back,Left Bottom Corner, keep detritus suspended)
-> SImple two Part ESV Dosing (Alk, Mag, Calcium Pretty Stable)
-> Algae Scrubber
-> Recently added GFO (RowaPhos) to bring and stabilize P<=0.1 ((REASON for recent decision to use GFO is my P is naturally swing at around 0.3-0.4, which I thought was too high and worse unstable for SPS)
-> Worst Part that still remains with my setup is my NO3 is around 25 STABLE (Haven't tackled this EVER, thought Algae Scrubber would, but apparently not).

-> I have done the odd ICP test, each time all good (except marking my N&P high) *No ICP done in last two years*

-> I have stopped all additives, but still do a bit of Aminos.

-> I do run Toxic metal absorption media to eliminate any Heavy metal contaminations (Should there be some kind of breach/Magnet, problem)

-> Just Finiishing up a DIY ALK Monitor (Accuracy 0.01) so (next week my ALK,MAG, CAL with be Ultra Stable)
-----------> I'll be only monitoring Alk Acccurately with the Monitor (but Mag/Calcium will be stable with ESV two part, and manual checks)

In preparation for installing the Alk MOnitor, I've been super diligent with Manual testing weekly to keep thing stable.
Over last two+ months or so, added new SPS Frags to have a good fresh start.
THINGS have been super Stable (ALK=7.8, CALC=460, MAG=1350, P=0.1, N=25 @Salinity of 35), but still having SPS problems.

I keep thinking it's my high nitrates, but it can't be that. (OR IS IT?)

-> IMPORATNT POINT...Since discussion is Bacteria ( I am Glass Bottom), but I have lots of MarinePure Media in Sump (And sump has a 10 Gallon smallrefuge where I just have live rock and one fisH)
** NOTE: My 90 Gallon Tank above is also GLASS Bottom for last 10 years+ **

This would be the farthest I got about 10 months ago, with some growth/color starting before things fell apart again.

This (below) is the 110G SPS Multi-FAILURE TANK (*NOW*) where I'm start from again. Bunch of new FRAGS (The Large Yellow LPS is the only non SPS I have, and it's been around growing for years)

Why can't I keep SPS (long term)? is it depleted bacteria after so many rebuilds/restarts.

Can someone Help me make this next attempt succeed?

Following along as im almost in the exact same boat as you , i have a DD300 , bare bottom and fighting to get back to something to stay alive longer than a few months

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Following along as im almost in the exact same boat as you , i have a DD300 , bare bottom and fighting to get back to something to stay alive longer than a few months

What’s your no3/po4?

 

[BOWHUNTER4250]

What’s your no3/po4?

Well part of my problem is / was that when i started this tank i used Siporax media and used too much , for the first 5 months frags were growing into mini colonys , however during regular testing i never had measurable No3 and Po4 THEN all of the algae came ... cyano . GHA , turf algae , was told all my nutrients are being sucked out before the corals can use them ..... took out the siporax little by little and those came up to approx. 4ppm on a red sea test kit for No3 and .06 on Po4 with Hanna ULN tester .. I do believe that beneficial bacteria should be in balance in any system ..... currently have rock , marine pure pheres and a handfull of siporax still in my sump , skimmer and water changes

 

[ycnibrc]

To sump up this discussion if your tank have good parameters and everything is stable and still you cant keep sps then it doesn’t hurt to try adding bacteria source to your tank. A lot of different manefacture have their own bacteria source u can chose which one more comfortable to you and try. Sps consume some bacteria as food so if your tank has more diverse bacteria then its more food for your sps to consume. Im not conclude nor saying with definite proof that bacteria is the missing link for sps success but i can say that it can make your sps healthier because its extra food in the water for corals to consume.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Well part of my problem is / was that when i started this tank i used Siporax media and used too much , for the first 5 months frags were growing into mini colonys , however during regular testing i never had measurable No3 and Po4 THEN all of the algae came ... cyano . GHA , turf algae , was told all my nutrients are being sucked out before the corals can use them ..... took out the siporax little by little and those came up to approx. 4ppm on a red sea test kit for No3 and .06 on Po4 with Hanna ULN tester .. I do believe that beneficial bacteria should be in balance in any system ..... currently have rock , marine pure pheres and a handfull of siporax still in my sump , skimmer and water changes

Try Turning your skimmer for 12 hours a day

 

[minus9]

While I do agree bacteria are important, the one item to keep catching my eye is how some of you feed multiple times a day. Am I to presume that you don't have a sand bed?

My auto feeder feeds three times a day, nori on a clip once, sometimes twice a day, LRS three times a day. It's about import and export. Also, I agree with Anthony about bacteria, but it's simplifying the process a bit. It comes down to creating a bio available food source, phosphorus and nitrogen, for the coral to consume/utilize. Hans-Werner Balling talks about this process/method and its importance for a sustainable/successful reef. These building blocks are necessary and are the lifeblood of a reef. If this process is limited and/or missing, then you see failing sps/corals.
I'll try to find the link to Hans' conversation about the subject.

 

[SeaDweller]

so much good insight in this thread. I haven't seen a real potential downside of dosing bacteria (Aside from maybe fueling a cyano problem), so I don't think it's harming anything in my system, but I think I'll cut the frequency to once a week or two. I was doing it twice a week with EcoBalance and MB7. I think whatever they have in the solution fueled in my minor cyano issue.

Part of the issue with these "sps problem" threads is each person's tank is so dynamic and different and what works for one individual may not work for another, but at least there are some common things we all agree on and we know works.

 

[ScottB]

At some point, a true nasty will get introduced like vibrio. In a very diverse, thriving, ecosystem, I believe that these vibrio type bacteria’s are held at bay, sort of like algae outcompeting Dino’s. In a system that has a lot of “space” for competition, you run the risk of letting these bad bacteria take over. I believe that the popular opinion on rtn is bacteria infection.

Having spent a little more time than I would like in the dino threads, I tend toward agreeing with this thesis as well.
Greater bacterial diversity === greater bacterial stability. And we all know the value of stability.

Fun stuff! Lets keep going.

 

[SeaDweller]

While I do agree bacteria are important, the one item to keep catching my eye is how some of you feed multiple times a day. Am I to presume that you don't have a sand bed?

I have a sand bed, I feed at least 5-6 times a day, and alot each feeding.

 

[minus9]

I have a sand bed, I feed at least 5-6 times a day, and alot each feeding.

Forgot to mention, but I have a sand bed too. Also run mud in the sump and need to add some more LR rubble. I really miss the 90's and the variety of rock available, but agree that limiting the removal/destruction of reefs is vital.

 

[WallyB]

To sump up this discussion if your tank have good parameters and everything is stable and still you cant keep sps then it doesn’t hurt to try adding bacteria source to your tank. A lot of different manefacture have their own bacteria source u can chose which one more comfortable to you and try. Sps consume some bacteria as food so if your tank has more diverse bacteria then its more food for your sps to consume. Im not conclude nor saying with definite proof that bacteria is the missing link for sps success but i can say that it can make your sps healthier because its extra food in the water for corals to consume.

Ok. What kind of specific Bacteria? since you mentioned earlier in thread, not the denitrification bacteria strain.

 

[shrimped]

Ok. What kind of specific Bacteria? since you mentioned earlier in thread, not the denitrification bacteria strain.

wondering if current existing and established bacteria would out compete new bacteria strains too

 

[ycnibrc]

wondering if current existing and established bacteria would out compete new bacteria strains too

If u can get access to real live rock from the ocean then u have pretty good strain of diverse bacteria.

 

[shrimped]

If u can get access to real live rock from the ocean then u have pretty good strain of diverse bacteria.

i heard KP Aquatics got some straight out of florida keys. ill try them out

 

[ycnibrc]

Ok. What kind of specific Bacteria? since you mentioned earlier in thread, not the denitrification bacteria strain.

I dont know the exact name of the bacteria however zeobak contain several different strain of bacteria beside the nitrogen cycle bacteria

 

[ycnibrc]

i heard KP Aquatics got some straight out of florida keys. ill try them out

If it came from similar ocean environments for reef then its good to go however i dont think i can go to catalina island and grab some rock and use it

 

[vanpire]

i heard KP Aquatics got some straight out of florida keys. ill try them out

This would be good to have.

 

[mfollen]

For those who don’t have anything broken, but are looking to improve bacterial diversity, is there any concern that any bacteria dosing products could have problematic bacteria such as something like vibrio?

Are there certain products above the rest in regards to quality and/or diversity of beneficial strains?

great thread!

 

[RCS82]

How does one wade thru all of the different products out there these days. We have stuff for tank cycling like Dr Tim's, Seachem and others. Then theres the Zeo products and KZ and then MB7 and other brands, maybe Aqua forest. Then the probiotic stuff as well as the Vibrant and Chroma products which is more Carbon related I think? So much out there with so many different opinions out there as well. Not really a question but I like the topic here and hoping for more insight.
Thanks