Why do some do so.

[atoll]

I have followed you & Albert Thiel for years. Paul & I are the same age; he has been reefing 6 months longer than I and I am 6 months older than he. Two years ago, I visited Paul at his home on Long Island.

About 7 years ago, I emulated @Paul B method and replace Jaubert Plenum in my display tank with reverse flow under gravel filter. My 25 year old mud/macro refugium was converted at the same time into a cryptic refugium by turning out the light and adding live rock in dark sump. Initially the mud was .25”, after 25 years, it is 1.25”. The mud is crawling with worms and feels spongy to the touch. I consider it as an incubator that feeds diverse filter feeders.

@atoll
Glad you posted this thread.

Glad you replied, appreciate it.
I will be 76 in about 6 weeks time so we are off a similar age. Our methods which vary slightly between us are not new and there are more of us practicing similar methods who don't post. Methods that have been in existence for many years well before all the methods people use today. There is only one true test of a method and that is one that has passed the test of time with any number of people practicing similar. Well done in seeing the light even though I don't use a RF UG filter.

 

[skey44]

You may or may not know both Paul and myself have very similar views and approach to how we believe the best way to tun a free tank and that includes no QT of any description.

I have been a no QT at all person in the past with decent success, but not complete. I too believe in natural immunity/ resistance to disease in healthy specimens in a healthy habitat.
I will speak from personal experience and say I am very glad I QT’d or at least observed my fish this time around before placing in display. I was able to condition them to captivity, prepare them for intense competition in my display through focused nutrition, and ensure no unnecessary disease introduction risks. Anything that goes in my tank has to be ready to deal with this boss Purple tank.

Like you said, many ways. But no QT is always a risk even if some people are successful without it. No matter how healthy the fish and the biome there’s no reason to unnecessarily risk the health of the population due to unnecessary exposure. There is no perfect system.
I’m sure you have some protocol to ensure your fish and corals are healthy before you add them, even if you don’t quarantine.
Just speaking based on my experience. Pretty sure if you introduced uronemea, a difficult to treat coral pest (montipora nudibranchs or AEFW) , or brook/velvet to your tank you wouldn’t be at all happy about a no QT belief.
I’m guessing besides a healthy biome you do something to safeguard your current inhabitants from pests and disease?
I’m just catching up with your methods. I know you’re well respected and have a system that works for you. Just stating my perspective which I believe has scientific and experience based validity.
I don’t QT coral, but I do only buy from trusted vendors and my trusted LFS that I have heavily vetted prior to purchase/addition. I also do a very thorough inspection/dip process before adding. Then there’s the team of functional fish (wrasses and damsels) ready to inspect and peck around every coral addition. So far so good on that front. I’m going to read more about your system/beliefs/experiences now as I feel likely it’s been posted on here numerous times, and even if I don’t do it that way I can learn from it.
My tank is only a year young. I’m having short term success. I’m always trying to improve my system and learn (completely obsessed). Think this is a good opportunity to expand my mind and learn.

 

[atoll]

I have been a no QT at all person in the past with decent success, but not complete. I too believe in natural immunity/ resistance to disease in healthy specimens in a healthy habitat.
I will speak from personal experience and say I am very glad I QT’d or at least observed my fish this time around before placing in display. I was able to condition them to captivity, prepare them for intense competition in my display through focused nutrition, and ensure no unnecessary disease introduction risks. Anything that goes in my tank has to be ready to deal with this boss Purple tank.

Like you said, many ways. But no QT is always a risk even if some people are successful without it. No matter how healthy the fish and the biome there’s no reason to unnecessarily risk the health of the population due to unnecessary exposure. There is no perfect system.
I’m sure you have some protocol to ensure your fish and corals are healthy before you add them, even if you don’t quarantine.
Just speaking based on my experience. Pretty sure if you introduced uronemea, a difficult to treat coral pest (montipora nudibranchs or AEFW) , or brook/velvet to your tank you wouldn’t be at all happy about a no QT belief.
I’m guessing besides a healthy biome you do something to safeguard your current inhabitants from pests and disease?
I’m just catching up with your methods. I know you’re well respected and have a system that works for you. Just stating my perspective which I believe has scientific and experience based validity.
I don’t QT coral, but I do only buy from trusted vendors and my trusted LFS that I have heavily vetted prior to purchase/addition. I also do a very thorough inspection/dip process before adding. Then there’s the team of functional fish (wrasses and damsels) ready to inspect and peck around every coral addition. So far so good on that front. I’m going to read more about your system/beliefs/experiences now as I feel likely it’s been posted on here numerous times, and even if I don’t do it that way I can learn from it.
My tank is only a year young. I’m having short term success. I’m always trying to improve my system and learn (completely obsessed). Think this is a good opportunity to expand my mind and learn.

With fish I am interested in, in an LFS I will observe for 20mins on a day when the LFS is likely to be quite. I keep a few feet back from the tank so it can't see me.

I employ an Oxydator which ensures my O2 lives are always at optimum which I believe is very important especially to newly introduced fish that will be stressed.

QT to me is another layernof stress
Copper adding to the stress as it's a poison. I also know little of the diseases you speak of as in my 45 years with about 12/13 aquariums of various sizes I have never encountered them. That is of course with no QT.

All I do is float the bag the fish is in to equalise the temperature, remove it from the bag and put it straight in the DT. If I am going to loose that fist (very rare) then I do so in the first week usually with no sign as to why or it just disappears.

 

[KrisReef]

With fish I am interested in, in an LFS I will observe for 20mins on a day when the LFS is likely to be quite. I keep a few feet back from the tank so it can't see me.

I employ an Oxydator which ensures my O2 lives are always at optimum which I believe is very important especially to newly introduced fish that will be stressed.

QT to me is another layernof stress
Copper adding to the stress as it's a poison. I also know little of the diseases you speak of as in my 45 years with about 12/13 aquariums of various sizes I have never encountered them. That is of course with no QT.

All I do is float the bag the fish is in to equalise the temperature, remove it from the bag and put it straight in the DT. If I am going to loose that fist (very rare) then I do so in the first week usually with no sign as to why or it just disappears.

Small question detail; Do you hand release or do you employ a net?

 

[skey44]

With fish I am interested in, in an LFS I will observe for 20mins on a day when the LFS is likely to be quite. I keep a few feet back from the tank so it can't see me.

I employ an Oxydator which ensures my O2 lives are always at optimum which I believe is very important especially to newly introduced fish that will be stressed.

QT to me is another layernof stress
Copper adding to the stress as it's a poison. I also know little of the diseases you speak of as in my 45 years with about 12/13 aquariums of various sizes I have never encountered them. That is of course with no QT.

All I do is float the bag the fish is in to equalise the temperature, remove it from the bag and put it straight in the DT. If I am going to loose that fist (very rare) then I do so in the first week usually with no sign as to why or it just disappears.

I suspect you have a very good eye and assessment. The observation at the fish store is the part I was wondering about. This is likely a layer to your process that has helped you have great success.
Your LFS likely uses a really god source and you likely have a 6th sense for fish health assessment. So it makes more sense why you have great success without QT or conditioning.
I found most of the fish thrived in my QT. I cut back on the prophylactic dosing as I gained experience and just monitored and conditioned for 30 days with my most recent additions. The fish did really well adapting to aquarium fare, losing fear of me, and I generally enjoyed the QT/observation phase watching the fishes health improve while waiting to go duke it out with the others in the display.
I am imminently taking down my QT and replacing with a frag tank (due to need, yay). I will not be able to QT the fish going into it so I will use your method and be very picky about what I choose to go in there at the time of purchase!

 

[atoll]

Small question detail; Do you hand release or do you employ a net?

Both, depending on the fish but I prefer to had release them.

 

[atoll]

I suspect you have a very good eye and assessment. The observation at the fish store is the part I was wondering about. This is likely a layer to your process that has helped you have great success.
Your LFS likely uses a really god source and you likely have a 6th sense for fish health assessment. So it makes more sense why you have great success without QT or conditioning.
I found most of the fish thrived in my QT. I cut back on the prophylactic dosing as I gained experience and just monitored and conditioned for 30 days with my most recent additions. The fish did really well adapting to aquarium fare, losing fear of me, and I generally enjoyed the QT/observation phase watching the fishes health improve while waiting to go duke it out with the others in the display.
I am imminently taking down my QT and replacing with a frag tank (due to need, yay). I will not be able to QT the fish going into it so I will use your method and be very picky about what I choose to go in there at the time of purchase!

I have bought fish from many different LFSs over the years with the same result. I also believe food and feeding is very important. I don't feed what I call dead dry foods.

 

[skey44]

I have bought fish from many different LFSs over the years with the same result. I also believe food and feeding is very important. I don't feed what I call dead dry foods.

I’m with you. I have really been focusing on and diving deep on nutrition of both my corals and fish. Think you can likely tell by the condition of my one year old purple “tank” pictured above.
My fish and corals eat better than me.

 

[PapaFishRocks]

Embrace the ugly. It's beautiful!

That’s the same thing my wife says about me!

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

the only mechanical i use is a protein skimmer. No socks, no floss no scrubber. The only time I remove all that detritus is if i think its causing an algae outbreak like cyano.

 

[atoll]

I’m with you. I have really been focusing on and diving deep on nutrition of both my corals and fish. Think you can likely tell by the condition of my one year old purple “tank” pictured above.
My fish and corals eat better than me.

Unlike most my fish which are in pairs and groups. I have one tang, one copperband and 1 wrasse. All 3 are there to do a job more than anything. I will leave you to guess the jobs they have.

 

[atoll]

I will invite Paul b to this thread, see if he wants to add to it @Paul B

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am the same for the most part, aside from the QT logic and belief. While I have never QT'd and have not had ever had an outbreak or a disease loss (that I know of), I do now buy from QT only vendors. It is a precaution that I feel is worth taking for my peace of mind. I am already too lazy to spend time working on the tank and the last thing I want to do is deal with a disease outbreak in a 20+ year old system.

 

[atoll]

I do have a YouTube channel which isn't exclusively reef aquarium but it is my reef channel. It does go into some of the details ar to my approach to how I keep my reef aquarium if anybody is interested.

sezles1

My channel is mainly but not exclusively marine reef keeping. It contains tip, DIY, reviews and videos of my reef aquariums over the years.

youtube.com

 

[exnisstech]

I run tanks with filtration, one with socks and skimmer another a roller and skimmer. The later is an acro tank and I run the skimmer for a pH bump that has really helped growth. I never empty or clean the skimmer as it's only for aeration. I also shut the roller down at night several times a week so it can overflow. I never clean a sump. I pulled the roller yesterday to clean the aiptasia out of it and install new fleece. I also swapped out the return pump I hadn't cleaned in almost 3 years. I didn't touch the stuff in the sump. I did try to move a couple of rocks in the sump. But they were all bound together with sponges so I left them where they were.
The sump underneath the roller.

I find that having a filthy sump helps keep the DT clean and healthy.

The first tank mentioned is a 330g tank with quite a few fish including 8 tangs some large and they generate a lot of waste so I empty the skimmer but i skim dry and only empty it once a week. I also have an ATS that i have to empty weekly. I do run 200 micron socks but they still let plenty of filth through to settle in the cryptic zone in the next chamber.

Another filthy sump but clean DT

My grandson finds the sumps more interesting than the DT

I moved into the above tank from a 180g that had been running over 6 years. When I cleaned the old sump i dumped all the accumulated waste into the new sump. Why would want to start a tank with a clean sump when I can start one full of life ?


I also have two AIO tanks with zero added filtration and two standard tanks running with hob filters.
One of the tanks with no filtration.

When adding fish I do observation for 45 days or longer and I haven't lost a new fish doing this. Too be fair I don't add a lot of fish but I did just add 10 chromis. I killed fish in medicated QT so I stopped several years ago. I typically only buy fish I can see in person but I'm fortunate and have 4 lfs
An observation tank with a hob

I'll take a filthy sump full of life vs a clean sump and have to battle nuisance algae in the DT any time.

 

[RobertK]

I had to take my 25 year-old tank down due to a damaged stand and am now planning a new tank/stand/sump. I've got the tank and stand figured out but am puzzled about the sump. I never ran mechanical filtration in my old tank but did run a skimmer and refugium. I'm surprised by all the sumps nowadays, they all either have filter socks or a fleece roller, seems like mechanical filtration has become the norm and refugia have been replaced by algae scrubbers. I'm wondering if I'm behind the times with reefkeeping or if I should stick to my old school methods.

I can see maybe running filter socks occasionally if I've stirred up a mess in the tank but would prefer to not mess with them on a regular basis. Definitely don't want to mess with a fleece roller. My main concern is water noise as I want a quiet system. If I get a sump with a filter sock holder will there be water noise if I'm running it without socks?

 

[atoll]

I had to take my 25 year-old tank down due to a damaged stand and am now planning a new tank/stand/sump. I've got the tank and stand figured out but am puzzled about the sump. I never ran mechanical filtration in my old tank but did run a skimmer and refugium. I'm surprised by all the sumps nowadays, they all either have filter socks or a fleece roller, seems like mechanical filtration has become the norm and refugia have been replaced by algae scrubbers. I'm wondering if I'm behind the times with reefkeeping or if I should stick to my old school methods.

I can see maybe running filter socks occasionally if I've stirred up a mess in the tank but would prefer to not mess with them on a regular basis. Definitely don't want to mess with a fleece roller. My main concern is water noise as I want a quiet system. If I get a sump with a filter sock holder will there be water noise if I'm running it without socks?

I can't hear water noise in my sump. Just let the water enter the sump under water which will greatly reduce noise. If it worked for younwell before then why not stick with it..Some of those running socks etc have removed them and gone with no mechanical filtration.

 

[RobertK]

Yes I'm inclined to go with what worked for me before but I do see the advantage of being able to put a filter sock in temporarily from time to time as needed. I was wondering if there would be water noise from a sump with a sock holder like this if there was no socks installed. Or is there a better way to be able to run filter socks on an as-needed basis.

 

[atoll]

Yes I'm inclined to go with what worked for me before but I do see the advantage of being able to put a filter sock in temporarily from time to time as needed. I was wondering if there would be water noise from a sump with a sock holder like this if there was no socks installed. Or is there a better way to be able to run filter socks on an as-needed basis.

Unless the water entering the sump is below the waterline you will get splashing socks or no socks.

 

[skey44]

Yes I'm inclined to go with what worked for me before but I do see the advantage of being able to put a filter sock in temporarily from time to time as needed. I was wondering if there would be water noise from a sump with a sock holder like this if there was no socks installed. Or is there a better way to be able to run filter socks on an as-needed basis.

I’ve got the waterbox Infinia sump and if you run the baffle for the refugium and low flow (3-5x turnover) it works great without socks.
In the sump you posted example of it would all depend on flow rate, looks like there’s a drop from the intake to the next chamber. Also look into modern drain setups utilizing gate valves for siphon overflow with emergency backup drains (herbie, bean animal, almost all modern systems utilize a version of these). Then make sure the drain is underwater in the sump and it greatly limits splashing and bubbles. So nice. These factors help a great deal with quieting things down.