Why don't algae control writers/advisors do live time work threads in the nuisance algae forum?

[BeanAnimal]

It takes work, because nobody fails at our rip cleans. We don’t hear back because the method works to preserve their tank. Here’s 300 more to trace out:)
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/official-sand-rinse-and-tank-transfer-thread.230281/

A "rip-clean" is just mechanical algae removal and substrate cleaning. There is no magical mechanism that "preserves the tank". The algae will come back if the root cause is not addressed. This doesn't take rocket science or a large cohort to "prove". Your own mantra is to "rip-clean" nanos yearly. :zany-face:

 

[brandon429]

Agreed partially

Not with the sentiment of a from-the-stands eval 2.0, but the simplicity and mechanics are summed accurately

Makes me wonder why there aren’t ten work threads on them from ten different people

Or articles

Or videos

No mention for the only known safe tank transfer technique known to reefing

(Notice there aren’t any other reef relocation/how to upgrade without recycling work threads except that one above, from any reef site)

Rip cleans aren’t just invasion cheats they are for translocation of two million collective dollars of materials without any losses

We learned crucial hidden rules about microbiology from reef rip cleans which were never told to us by teachers who write about reef microbiology


There’s more to it than it seems: but this is only apparent from actually running the jobs

clicking on the links and reading prep evals show something crucial a keeper must do after the rip clean for bleaching safety…so, don’t read anything I patterned out, and go try and start such a simple rip clean guide thread as you see it @BeanAnimal and let’s see what your page ten looks like

Some of the steps we use in rip cleans to control coral bleaching have turned out to be very very helpful for saving tanks that go through temp drops and power outages and crash risks, we build on new levels of tank control by patterning out these works and being sincere vs jeering in attitude

Every analysis I ever wrote for preps in those threads was a caring prediction set and outcome control set of actions for those tanks, there was a lot on the line in those works.

 

[BeanAnimal]

My entire thread here is baiting action from reef pros...

...over a thousand readers have seen this, yet only one taker

Occam's razor says that you are not baiting the "pros" and thousands of readers, but rather alienating them by calling them all afraid, idiots, shills or greedy conspirators.

 

[brandon429]

Contrast

https://reefbuilders.com/2023/07/27/how-to-move-a-reef-tank-and-cabinet/
There’s one article on how to move a reef tank

The authors reef tank, that is.

Applying Mike’s article to reef tanks in general is flat out dangerous, page one of the sand rinse thread has collected examples of messing with sand without rinsing it

Mike didn’t need to include those risks: they aren’t present in his setup

But he’s missing a vital system for managing transfer tanks for others, and we aren’t going to see him ever doing that in a work thread

He will begin losing tanks right and left when res publica comes calling if he applies that article to all tank transfers


Work threads vs safely written articles is what this thread is about

Mike should have included a min one year of guided tank transfers he did in that article, to make it legit for the masses.

 

[BeanAnimal]

No mention for the only known safe tank transfer technique known to reefing

(Notice there aren’t any other reef relocation/how to upgrade without recycling work threads except that one above, from any reef site)

Respectfully Brandon, the vast majority of the "science" (you like that word) of reefing is community driven in one form or another. The hobby has evolved in countless ways. You are trying to lasso it all and say it is nonsense unless it has been "proven" in a "work thread". The hobby, Brandon, is a "work thread".

Example: "Tank transfers" have occurred for decades. We all learn form trial and error and there is advice, data and conversations on the subject spread throughout the ether, collective brains of those who participate in this hobby and recorded mediums from books to websites to podcasts to wet moldy notebooks in club libraries.

I think you are trying to boil the entire hobby down to go/no-go procedures for everything and label anything that does not strictly follow those procedures as "untested hokum". There are two problems with that. One is that is not the way something as broad as this works or evolves and two, you can't appoint yourself (nobody can) the arbiter and editor of the list, the keeper of the science or the judge and jury of the methods and outcomes.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Mike should have included a min one year of guided tank transfers he did in that article, to make it legit for the masses.

To satisfy who, you?

The fact that the man has not only kept and "transferred" his own reef tanks for 40+ years but worked on and consulted both for free and for pay on countless others is a body of work worth noting, as his personal success. But forget all of that. He is participating member of the hobby and he has methods and advice that he is willing to share. You are not the arbiter of reefing truth, nobody is. Take his advice and use it, build on it or leave it. That is what everyone else does and how everyone else learns and the hobby and methods evolve. You can't just demand that it all be done in YOUR proposed format.

You can disagree with his, or anybodies methods or advice, but at some point standing on the street corner and ranting and raving about everyone else being dumber than you unless they prove it in your latest challenge are not doing your cause any favors.

 

[BeanAnimal]

so, don’t read anything I patterned out, and go try and start such a simple rip clean guide thread as you see it @BeanAnimal and let’s see what your page ten looks like

That's just it, I have ZERO desire to "work" under your model and most of the "pros" and "thousands" of passersby don't either.

Anybody that I am communicating with or that stumbles upon what I say can take my advice or leave it. I don't want or need a credential on my sleeve or approval from you are anybody else to communicate, nobody does.

Reefkeeping has evolved with the input and trial and error of countless participants. It is a collective body of knowledge, Brandon. It is not a controlled science experiment bound by a hypothesis and the methodical search for an answer under ridged controls.

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/nuisance-algae-including-bacteria.631/
All debates should take place there. Greg has set a catch line for work jobs

when that thread builds pages he will have a powerful link to wield

we truly can't get anywhere in this thread productively unless some sort of business is coming from links, that originate there, because that's the scope of this thread per the title. I wanted to drive all business and activity: there above.

 

[BeanAnimal]

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/nuisance-algae-including-bacteria.631/
All debates should take place there. Greg has set a catch line for work jobs

No, Brandon. Debates take place wherever they occur. You are myopically attempting to control the way that we communicate and funnel it all into YOUR paradigm of how things should work. I get it, but it (ahem) doesn't work in this format. :grimacing-face:

we truly can't get anywhere in this thread productively unless some sort of business is coming from links, that originate there, because that's the scope of this thread per the title. I wanted to drive all business and activity: there above.

I will respect your wish and not badger you here, but I suggest that you consider the lack of participation as a signal that this format and your outward disdain for anybody that is not following it, is not working.

What you want is a controlled and moderated structure to organize and document conversations with linear and only relevant (curated) information. For that, you will need to build your own resource. People will either subscribe to the methodology and participate, or they won't. Trying to coerce people in this venue and format to follow you is starting to make you look like the crazy guy in the park trying to herd pigeons as he rants about society feeding the pigeons.

Good luck... I will leave you to it.

 

[Antaguana]

This is not a contest. There is no conspiracy. I don’t care about ‘likes’ and my participation in this hobby is not monetized. I participate for the enjoyment of the hobby.

@BeanAnimal I know you don't care about likes, but that comment deserves one ;)

Kudos to you for the numerous replies and keeping your temper.

Occam's razor says that you are not baiting the "pros" and thousands of readers, but rather alienating them by calling them all afraid, idiots, shills or greedy conspirators.

@brandon429 As a bit of friendly feedback, I can confirm what Bean Animal is saying here. As one of thousands of readers, you were giving me advice on a cycle and I was grateful for it and considering your input until you told me

Old cycling science was chosen here to the exclusion of any disease preps. Second prediction: fish losses hit by summertime

Basis for predictions: any help thread currently running in the disease forum and the age of the tanks posting for loss help.

At this point I thought, hmm this guy is not actually listening to what I am saying or trying to help me, he is trying to make me feel bad for not doing exactly as he said. At this point, you alienated me and I found it difficult to trust that you were trying to help. I became suspicious that any further advice might be so you could then say 'see I told you that your fish would die and it was all your fault you should have listened to me (and ignored everyone else) now I will add you to my evidence pile."

I'm not saying this to be mean or harsh, I really just want to help. I think you do have some valuable input, not least of all you are clearly willing to put the time in to help others and that is very commendable. I just want to say please be less domineering and heavy-handed. Accept that, sometimes others will know more than you, sometimes you will be wrong, and sometimes you will be right but people will get confused by 6 different responses and not take your advice. That doesn't make them a bad person and you should not take it personally. Listen to other people and learn from their experiences as well as your own. Most of all, you can not single-handedly lead a crusade against the whole hobby and badger them into doing things your way. No one will enjoy that and it won't be helpful.

By all means, share your theories, run your experiments, and tell everyone about your successes, and failures.
Accept challenges from other people and prove them right or wrong.
Challenge others to prove their theories and show you their experiments, successes and failures.
This will all help the community and lead to us all learning more.

Just don't imply that because people are not taking up your challenge or doing things the way you want they are hacks or shills, and don't threaten people or try to guilt them into following your methods. That isn't nice or helpful.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

I also want to add something here...

You recently use the words "invasions" or "invaders" a lot. You also (a page back) told somebody that in a matter of hours (following your method) that they could have crystal clear water and no nuisance algae, as opposed to listening to anybody else's "control" methods that will take months.

1 - "nuisance algae" is not an invader, but rather a natural part of a marine ecosystem. You can't fully get rid of it, but rather you need to learn to control it.

2 - your "rip clean" method is nothing more than aggressive mechanical removal, it is not a "real time" control method, it is a one-time act that needs to be combined with REAL, long-term "control" methods and/or regularly repeated.

While some people may be willing to tear down their reef once a year and scrub the rock and use tweezers and a microscope to remove "invaders" and wash or replace their sand- most of us would rather work spend the time to provide an environment where that does not need to happen, especially every year or two.

I think the point of those measures is that people have let the tanks get into that state and need a remedy sooner rather than later. Understand what caused the issue, remove the result of the issue, start from a better place, and then (hopefully) prevent the issue from creating the bad outcome.

When I teach ecology, one of the common themes I hit on is ‘In ecology, nothing good happens quickly. Only bad things happen quickly’. Sure, it’s a bit of a generalization and not 100% set in stone, but it largely holds.

For people to adequately remedy their aquarium problem by correcting/resolving foundational issues and letting the system find balance naturally is very time consuming, and frankly, not a very realistic option for many reef keepers.

Sometimes you just gotta do a clean sweep.

 

[brandon429]

In this video, I wondered what it would have been like if Neil Young did not rise to the occasion when asked



by doing so there's untold impact via the butterfly effect

why must article writers and book writers always tell us about past things-they won't do a live time demo in the reef park.


our teachers should be able to conduct the orchestra live time, at least occasionally, they should agree to a live time performance just like that above that will still be accessible in 50 years.



not doing work threads allows reef teachers to skip pressure-based evolution

by reef teacher I mean writers from reef blogs, macna speakers, book authors, heads of reef companies / BRS etc>those who produce procedural information should have volumes of outbound work we can inspect.



The next time any reader here sees a new book or published article on algae control, they might be thinking what I'm thinking: was all the material in the author's work something they fully controlled at home or at work? how much of their material involves independent verification of outcomes using other's reef tanks? is there ever going to be a time in human history that a book author does a single live time algae work thread or is that destined to be avoided, forever?

I'm fascinated by the psychology of reef authorities who aren't actively seeking out work jobs online, name the excuse why. just the fact I can't find any past examples makes it a fascinating study, they could have done a few if they wanted to.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I think the point of those measures is that people have let the tanks get into that state and need a remedy sooner rather than later. Understand what caused the issue, remove the result of the issue, start from a better place, and then (hopefully) prevent the issue from creating the bad outcome.

I agree 100%
The rub is how it is framed, presented and IMHO over complicated.

When I teach ecology, one of the common themes I hit on is ‘In ecology, nothing good happens quickly. Only bad things happen quickly’. Sure, it’s a bit of a generalization and not 100% set in stone, but it largely holds.

That applies to many things in this universe, but many of those “bad” things are a culmination of accumulated lesser events and the proverbial straw, flood gate or perfect storm.

For people to adequately remedy their aquarium problem by correcting/resolving foundational issues and letting the system find balance naturally is very time consuming, and frankly, not a very realistic option for many reef keepers.

Sometimes you just gotta do a clean sweep.

Again, I agree. But presenting the “clean sweep” as the cure as opposed to the treatment or therapeutic is misleading. Can you let things go and clean sweep every time they spiral? Sure. However, I think a more logical approach is at least the hybrid.

 

[BeanAnimal]

In this video, I wondered what it would have been like if Neil Young did not rise to the occasion when asked

You are still trying to brow best people into proving themselves to you and the community via your prescribed methodology. It is honestly confounding that you continue to throw mud in the eye of the entire body of work that is this hobby if it hasn’t been presented in and verified by a “work thread in real-time”. Again, the entire hobby is “real time work thread”.

 

[brandon429]

-But presenting the “clean sweep” as the cure as opposed to the treatment or therapeutic is misleading-


the reason your evaluation isn't valid is because you don't have an example of what isn't misleading, but still with results in place, that you did.

 

[Reefering1]

Again, the entire hobby is “real time work thread”.

Simple and profound statement here. We are on the leading edge of understanding and innovation, nobody truly understands the complete truth of what we are trying to accomplish. It's all experiments

 

[BeanAnimal]

-But presenting the “clean sweep” as the cure as opposed to the treatment or therapeutic is misleading-


the reason your evaluation isn't valid is because you don't have an example of what isn't misleading, but still with results in place, that you did.

One does not need a work bread to prove that a “rip clean” is not a permanent remedy if the conditions the preempted it are not abated. Your insistence that the entirety of information, logic, methodology, science and practice in this hobby is hokum unless proven in a “work thread” is delusional, well intentioned or not.

 

[brandon429]

we are about to debate the next nine pages on the validity of rip cleans, but in the meantime fifteen thousand dollars worth of reef tanks are on the move not using the critic's best practices and they're logging the entire process in sets of pics with recent dated activity, soon to be added to the threads

the critics haven't supplied us with a best practices for dinos, algae issues, tank moves and sandbed handling, we just know rip cleaning is withholding truth


I've always found it amazing how the critics are never where the work is, any way we slice it.

never ending criticism provides good shaping input for evolution but it's not nearly the driver that doing some work I could see would be.

the nuisance algae forum needs new help today, critics here should start a thread there

this thread is about work threads, we've described what those are, to proceed without one/some/any is being belligerent.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

It's all experiments.

Yes, but really no.

There is very little…maybe virtually none…of what I would consider actual experiments here on this board. I’m a little bit of a stickler on this.

There are definitely a lot of experiences, but hardly any actual investigations that reveal significant data. Even looking in the ‘Experiments’ sub-forum, I don’t see targeted, specific research questions, null and alt hypotheses, independent, dependent, and control variables, repeatable procedures, ample data, standard deviation,
error bars, t-tests, p-values, Chi-squared, ANOVA, etc.

I keep promising myself that I am going to actually carry out some investigations to test a lot of what we talk about here, since I have the means to do so. But I never get around to it. All I ever offer is more experiences.

 

[BeanAnimal]

the critics haven't supplied us with a best practices…

…I've always found it amazing how the critics are never where the work is, critics here should start a thread there

You have "critics" because you overtly and collectively challenge everyone (quite literally) that does not subscribe to your methods ore beliefs.

There is "work" everywhere, it is the collective of the hobby. It is the tens of thousands (millions) of captive reefs all over the world that are/were built using methods and advice that is not derived from a "work thread" and/or is contrary to YOUR approved methods.