Why don't algae control writers/advisors do live time work threads in the nuisance algae forum?

[brandon429]

Here’s why opinions are flowing like cheap wine: they come come from behind a keyboard only, from assumptions never tested and all critics get to skip showing a better way to meet the demand outcome.

Impractical? How’d we get sixty pages of them for you to check for after pics? Some of these are 200 gallon setups

Where the work is, notice how opinions are so different in the thread compared to insulated and protected and never tested opinions @Ian_B:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

You get the benefit of never having to be accountable for anyones outcome, while still being able to level what sounds like a well-positioned critique from work experience.

But the reality is, rip cleans still provide all those ends above nobody else will provide and you don’t have a better way we get to check for sixty pages of alternate work. If you do have that, post it


In that thread it’s all fixed tanks, happy reefers, complete confidence in outcomes made before the jobs begin for nine years

None of the diatribe you guys posted here is found there, where the work is

But here, where nobody has to provide work threads or test effort for any plan, and all examples are from our own tanks like you said: rip cleans are all bad with a litany of downsides and personal attacks in place. Keep up that dichotomy

You’re always going to feel slighted when asked to move beyond that lazy zone, at least before forming an opinion about someone else’s work. You have three hundred outcomes above to rework your opinion with above, and to complete that monumental task you’ll also need a working example of a better way with equally positive outcomes, good luck finding that. Link it here when you do.


From Ian B:
“To me Brandon seems to come across as sounding very superior through using his own jargon to post on”

This whole thread is about me asking others to create reference work (the kind we like, not a university article study link) and their fifteen reasons (other than Gregg) why they will not do that all while getting ribbed lightly for such armchair evals.

For you to invalidate the only sources of work examples we have so far for tank relocation work, tank invasion work, and cycling troubleshoots in six pages of discourse AND for you to opt out of creating your own while joining into groupthink pounce is quite the common mode. What Gregg did is the uncommon mode

 

[brandon429]

Working in a greenhouse has 0% implication to reef tanks, but you can only know that by trying to approach reef tanks problems like greenhouse problems in work threads. If you never venture into trying your opinion in someone else’s challenge tank, you’ll always think they’re congruent work settings and your written opinions will reflect that thought.

What works for reef tanks can easily be collected and tried in other peoples tanks, they are asking for help daily and willing to do what you ask in the nuisance algae forum.

Everyone here who’s just sure of what’s correct and incorrect in reefing could be honing proofs there: but we know you won’t.

So far, Gregg has a work thread in there and I have mine and none of you have one from any phase of your opinion prep, and that’s how it’ll stay.

 

[brandon429]

I asked three critical parties here two pages ago if they wanted to take over some work threads I get sent in pm’s for live time jobs

Excuses were given vs ‘yes’ I’d love that opportunity
(And then more critique against my methods appeared)

I can redirect the private message posters here for live time work guidance by anyone else if they like?

Any new takers want to try? The entire reason this thread exists isn’t for unfounded opinions on anything, it’s to find the yes men who will take live work jobs. There ought to be at least one more out there?

While you decide which job you want to dodge or accept, we are beginning a new side job here based on request

Ripping out live rock

Hey. Im wondering. Can i rip out all the live rock in My tank to clean and avoid a new cycle. My tank has been struggeling real bad, and now the rocks are just covered in buble alge. So What Im thinking is ripping them out, taking all the corals of, and clean the rocks one by one

www.reef2reef.com

Before we get further on the rip clean, any chiefs here want to run that job first? Don’t just hop in and post about getting some Mithrax crabs and then never post back, get in there and see the job done to completion. If you don’t, I will.


That new work thread above is a perfect example for my thread: only forum posters are going to help him, it won’t be a sage, a teacher on reef practices, a blogger or a book author and especially it won’t be a critic from this thread

Who rises to the occasion are a few of our peers, not the teachers


That needs to change, I wish Mike P from reefbuilders or BRS or a recent macna speaker was who responded to him, but that’s never going to be the case.

 

[brandon429]

Readers, click on that thread above that’s building up live time work example details.


Ask yourself: if I was the one who stepped in and assured him we’d correct that tank, what method would I use? Would I have some similar jobs already completed for the matter that he could study?


Even if we don’t reference rip clean threads to begin the plan for his tank, what article ever published shows how to reverse a challenge reef tank fully invaded?


When reading the preps building up there, what sense did I give him that this might not work? He’s been given total confidence for a reason, this will be outbound work job #3425 it’s not uncommon to get these jobs when you’re plain asking for them and hunting for them at 5am everyday for twenty years online.

it’s ok to stay the heck out of that thread if nobody has really worked a tank like that before, I just wanted to show how easy it is to be a critic here via groupthink--hammer the people who take on the jobs but never, ever take one of your own.


where the work is, the critics are shy. Book authors are even more shy.

 

[Paul B]

Getting called to do a live time job is simply too scary for 99% of the pop here, and maybe some authors too-is that a fair assessment or too mean

To be fair let me start what I think may be a long diatribe by saying I did not read every post in this thread.
As you said it may be to scary for authors to post here and I will tell you why. As you know I have been in this hobby and I believe successfully since the day the hobby started and I have dealt with all the diseases, dinos, pests algae and annoying posters that everyone has heard of.

(I don't hardly have the best looking tank on here but it is arguably the oldest and very healthy.)

I successfully "managed" all of them. I said "managed" because I never really eliminated any of them. There is a reason for that. I don't believe we should eliminate all algae, dinos, pests or pathogens. Those things are in every healthy reef in the world and our goal should be to have a healthy tank with healthy inhabitants that mimic the sea as much as possible in a confined tank.

You want an algae free tank? Get fifty 8" tangs and let them go in your 75 gallon tank. All the algae will be gone in seconds (before the fish die) This happens in the sea, but won't work in a tank. By the way, if you SCUBA dive you will see that the sea is loaded with herbivores like tangs, algae bleenies, urchins, snails, chitens and manatees. Guess what they are eating?

Those inhabitants should never need quarantining or poisoning with copper or any other unnatural chemical that they will not find in the sea

Of course we are not keeping fish in the sea, they are all in a "home" tank. Not a 20,000 gallon public aquarium tank. Home tanks work differently and things happen faster.

I get sick when I look at a disease forum on any of the many fish forums. To me fish diseases is silly as I don't believe fish should ever get sick so I almost never go on a thread to cure them even though I could.

I posted ad nauseum and wrote a book how to keep fish healthy. Of course no one has to believe me or read the book which I don't make a nickel on as 100% of the profits go to MS research. (I publish the receipts on this forum)

Algae threads also amuse me as I don't want to eliminate all algae because like parasites, thats just counterproductive. I can't and won't advise people how to eliminate algae because that is just stupid. I have algae in my tank, me and my fish love it.

How many posts do we see of a two week old tank with a little green on the rocks and the advice is normally to add some chemical, herbivore, change the water or turn off the lights.

After over fifty years it is very tiring trying to advise people on how I would handle this when 90% of hobbyists (I made that number up) believe we need to act if we see algae or a spot on a fish.

I also feel long quarantine and in almost all cases medication is counter productive and will result in weakened fish with a shorter life span. Almost no one agrees with that even though it has worked 100% in my tank for over 4 decades. (I don't want to argue about this, If you don't agree, send me a SASE and I will steam off the stamp and throw out the letter)

It is very tiring and sometimes annoying trying to teach people in this hobby. As an example people ask me for advice and I will normally say the tank first of all needs some age on it, there needs to be many, "natural" hiding places where the fish can't see you etc.

"All" the food needs to contain living "gut" bacteria and a few other things. Then the person will say my methods don't work as they tried them but they used freeze dried foods or pellets, their tank is a montage of PVC fittings and has a bare, glass bottom. The fish were quarantined and medicated for "safety".

I can guarantee that they will fail. I witnessed hundreds of them. So I am tired.

Brandon you have been after me for years to help people. I probably post more than almost anyone on 5 forums. AS I said, I am old and tired and all my advice is out there if anyone wants to read it. If not, that is fine. But have a great day.

 

[BeanAnimal]

None of that matters unless you prove it all in "real time outbound work threads" where you are accountable. Your knowledge and experience don't count unless you prove them in Brandon's demanded format. In fact, you are doing nothing to help this community or hobby unless you do so.

I am not being facetious here. That is the hill Brandon has chosen to die on, as crazy as it sounds.

 

[brandon429]

No, it’s that I’m working tanks live time and building new completion examples while you’re just enjoying your reef, linear passivity is also a hill to some.

 

[brandon429]

Team, right now in the chem forum we are working a claimed stuck reef tank cycle

Cycling and water parameters question

Hello! As the forum says, I’m new to the saltwater hobby. I’ve been cycling my tank for 23 days now. The light has been on all the time except for today that I turned it on for a few hours. The Ammonium (NH4) has been constantly at 0 I do a test every three days give or take. Same with the NO2...

www.reef2reef.com

Anyone got any experience (work threads involving other’s cycle jobs you completed with fish entry follow ups we can track out) they might add, to specifically tell this tank owner the date their cycle was ready or can be ready

That’s a rhetorical question- y’all three know I’m just messing with u.

critics here who work long tireless hours doing stalled cycle work and have the link trails to show know that disease preps are the real issue: not one reader on this site has seen a true stalled cycle by day 25 (250 api owners queue up lol)

One thing that helps cycle umps spot a misread is practice is time spent closing out cycles for other people. They can usually link those events when needed.


In line with this thread here: you know who I wish was running that work thread on a stalled reef cycle?

@DrTim


There is no harm, no foul, no malice or ill intent in asking our reef teachers and retailers to do live time jobs. It should be something they seek out occasionally, or at the very least will pop in from time to time just to keep the focus going strong

People we look up to should be able to do what Neil Young did for that fan in the park, at least once in their reefing arc.

 

[BeanAnimal]

No, it’s that I’m working tanks live time and building new completion examples while you’re just enjoying your reef, linear passivity is also a hill to some.

We all "work" differently, Brandon. You just refuse to accept any "work" that does not fit your criteria. Your choice. Let me rephrase... it is not a hill that you are attempting to hold, it appears to be an island.

You have not skipped a beat in your verbose demands that anybody who does not prove themselves in a "work thread" is lazy, scared, a shill or just not capable. In fact, you keep doubling down on the premise. That is unfortunate, but your (again) choice.

As many of us have said, you have some very good insight and input but the over-the-top back handed remarks, rhetoric, awkward language and stream of conscious verbosity that surround it are tough to navigate.

Best of luck, Brandon. I will leave you to it.

 

[Paul B]

Brandon I looked at that thread about the stuck cycle and I personally would not go on a thread such as that because I disagree with much of the advice so my input would just be a cause for arguments. There are enough arguments in this hobby without me being the cause of another one.

As I am sure you know, I am as old school as you can get and I am old. This is from that thread.

Quote:

I have this products to start the cycle. The special blend is probably the worst smell I’ve ever smelt jaja and the nite out is better hahaha no one have me a heads up about the smells! I keep that one in the fridge. The first days I only added the special blend and then once a week special blend and the normal dose of the nite out right after.

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• I realize people have to make money and I have no problem with that and if you feel the need to use all those products which "may" be fine, then go that way.
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• I personally wouldn't use any chemical, bacteria or "natural" formula to start or unstuck a cycle so I won't get involved.
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• The word "cycled" is another thing I don't talk about because a tank, even mine is never cycled. The "cycle", meaning amount of correct bacteria varies depending on what is added or removed. So If I add a fish today, more bacteria will grow to process the wastes so there is no set time the tank cycles like 95% of people believe. (I also made up that number)
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• If I cycle a tank using a dead shrimp, it only means the tank has enough bacteria to process one dead shrimp and nothing more. It is a stupid measurement and something I also don't want to argue about.
  
  
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• So you can see why me and many other people including most "Old Timers" with successful tanks don't want to get involved or offer advice.
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• I get PMs all the time asking advice and I have no problems with that, but on an open forum with thousands of people, it is just to aggravating especially if it starts out with things I don't agree with.

 

[brandon429]

@Paul B thanks for your input that’s constructive and helpful

 

[brandon429]

@Paul B if I could reflect on your response for this thread it would be to show vs tell me

Pick any new cycling help thread and simply work it to close where their tanks is stocked

Process all the variables they throw at you, choose which tests to believe and which ones to discard, bring the tank into a stocked and running status live time. There’s ten new jobs available recently in the new forum asking for cycle guidance work

Demo that pls

choose the disease integration setting for the cycles worked. We both know they can’t in good conscience input fish into a new dry start tank without high losses expected

They need to know how, and when they can add fish even if their tank can process ammonia just fine.

We get all that from the work you do in a live time work thread, a new one started today. Pick one with me to work live time

The criterion for a book author to be present has now been met I thank you for that tremendously.

 

[brandon429]

Paul since you deal in established live rock vs dry rock startups, I’d say about 95% of reef cycle posts can’t use your approach, they’re wanting much quicker stocking rates than you’re offering from the history I recall with your tank work threads.

You can’t convince the lot to go with marine prepped or live rocks, they want the bottle bac starts and dry rock off the pet store shelves

we can’t ignore that demand in the market since lots of fish are subjected to that type of tank as their first home. We need cycling experts to run dry rock work threads so we see how they adjust to market demands and varying audiences for the testing at hand.

I think you should unstick a stuck dry rock cycle and manage several months into the build, that’s the standard expected for my rip clean works after all.

 

[Paul B]

Brandon, Of course I could do that if I had that kind of time. I realize I am retired but I am much busier now then when I worked. As you know my wife has MS and can't do hardly anything, not even put her shoes on, so I am needed much of the day.
I come on here occasionally when I have the time and can't really come on here for much of the day to try to teach something that I have written about for many hours and years. Here is a thread I posted about exactly what you are asking.

How I would start a new tank

It's a shame when new hobbiests first start up a tank and see a little cyano, hair algae or diatoms they panic and come on these forums for advice and almost always are hit with a plethora of suggestions as to what chemicals or animals they should add to remedy something that is a natural...

www.reef2reef.com

I can go on those threads and say the same thing but I feel it would be fruitless and as I said, cause arguments.
The vast majority of hobbiests on these forums are Noobs which is great as it expands the hobby.

But many Noobs give a lot of advice because of a fish or creature they kept for a few weeks or the one tank they cycled that has "Great Success" for a month. Those somewhat not exactly true statements causes disturbances in the hobby that many people take as fact. How many years was the rumor circulating that you can add a cleaner shrimp and ich will disappear? How many people call my method "Drop and Plop" when that has nothing to do with it.

Read at least the first post in the thread I linked on here about how I would start a new tank.


If I can later, I will go on a thread that you point me to to try to offer advice. But as you know, my advice is very old school and doesn't hardly, if ever use any chemicals or quick start products so some sponsors will not like it. Not that their products are bad, I just don't have any experience with them as all the tanks and stores I started were before most members were born.

 

[Paul B]

Brandon where is a thread you would like me to look into? I can't find one

 

[CoastalTownLayabout]

The established advice, opinions and methodologies of the ‘reef experts’ in relation to algae management work and have been proven countless times in the successful tanks of both new and experienced hobbyists. The catch is of course that you have to follow it consistently without falling for shortcuts, quick fix solutions or most importantly setting conditions and stocking tempos that work directly against them.

For those who don’t, by all means go to the end of the rip clean line and wait your turn. It will place you back in a better position where you can either comply with the established protocols of algae management going forward or maintain bad habits and go around the merry go round again.

Some kudos should go to Brandon for taking on these tanks. He’s like the host in an Extreme Hoarders SOS style reality show. Compelling yet inherently frustrating to watch.

 

[Readywriter]

How to argue the fun out of a hobby: the thread.

 

[brandon429]

That’s usually what the greater public does agreed.


I get 99% kickback when pressing peoples comfort zones, no kickback if we let the public exist without presses.




Taken correctly, the thread should motivate someone to take on live work jobs that will hone transmissible reef correction options better than relying on an authors untested written advices.

I have six new jobs in the inbox- three rip cleans, one tank transfer of about $15000 in corals, a very big pressure deal, and two cycle prep jobs. some readers don’t take offense to the thread they just want their tanks fixed and are willing to try our methods.




Isn’t it obvious that Gregg is a real teacher from this group? If his students read this thread they’d be proud of him for taking action vs responding with anger. Everyone else did the normal thing and typed that they were hurt or offended about my aquarium challenge. Paul was ready to help find some jobs, he was willing to work outbound, our first book author present who responded. Thankful for that input.

 

[brandon429]

@Paul B

You can pick any one you like. I look for stuck cycle challenge posts in the chem forum or new tanks forum and run them a breakdown to get it unstuck. Pick anyone you think has a stuck cycle challenge and try and convince them to follow your plan if you’d like to work on cycle work threads.

Most threads exist where ten people are stating fix options, we add more to the post, and the keeper opts to go with someone else’s plan. Have to work a few trials until someone picks your method to run then when they’re stocked and running your advice will be on file.

Among the standard bottle bac options where everyone turns out fine when they add fish anyway, there are routinely tough challenges where at day 30 they claim to still be at 8 ppm ammonia and want help fixing that. Of course anyone can tell them to wait longer, to buy something, so if you have ways to assist them outside the norm that will stand out.


Algae challenge threads are harder to run live time than a cycling thread

For the hard jobs, pick any post ongoing asking for help in the nuisance algae forum and turn the tank around to corrected mode within the thread by selling them on running X method.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I don’t think you read a single word that Paul wrote Brandon.