A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[Paul B]

They keep their fish healthy by not exposing them unnecessarily to parasites and diseases.

The fish came from the ocean so they were all exposed. If they did anything to eliminate those parasites, the fish have a weakened immune system and are 100% more likely to die of infection. Just my opinion.

However, no doubt that parasites causing tank wipeouts are responsible for a lot of people leaving the hobby, too.

Parasites should never wipe out a tank and that can only happen in a quarantined tank. An immune tank is protected from that and if it happens, the tank was not immune. The process of keeping the fish immune from the sea has to be done correctly just as quarantine does.

By “normal environment” you mean a small glass box in a house and infected with millions of parasites that would normally be spread across a vast ocean?

Yes. An immune tank will only have a small number of parasites because the fishes immunity will not support millions of parasites. If that were the case, my tank would not be here as it has bein infected for decades. I can, and do add any fish with any disease and nothing will happen as I have posted numerous times.

Find me a study that shows that people that don’t have 300 deer ticks attached to them are healthier than the ones that do. No one has done such a study because it’s obvious that people without parasites sucking their bodily fluids out are healthier than people that do. Similarly, there isn’t a study on fish with flukes because no one actually thinks that a fish that has flukes is healthier than a fish that doesn’t have that parasite.

I lived in a jungle in Viet Nam for a year and the only people who got malaria (from mosquitoes carrying the parasite) were Americans. And we had to take pills every day. The Vietnamese people had no pills and they looked mighty healthy to me. If we got malaria it was a court martial offence because the pill prevented it. But if we didn't take the pill, we would almost always get malaria because it was so prevalent.

I don’t know why you think it’s easier to manage a disease instead of just avoiding it in the first place.

It's easier because you just take a fish and add it to your tank with no treatment or fanfare. What is simpler than that?
As I said many times, if I can do it, anyone can. I am an electrician not a magician.

When you were younger, did you look for someone with herpes on their lips so that you could kiss them and be “healthier”? You realize that is an insane argument, right? Why is it different with fish?

Maybe if she was really good looking, I would go for it. :confused:

Many fish don’t develop resistance to ich or velvet either. They just die. Apparently they are “healthier” that way.

Which fish are those? I never found a fish that could not get immune. Those fish are what we call Extinct. :D

 

[count krunk]

if animals, people, anything, didn't create resistance to diseases, esp the most common ones. They would all die.

 

[Paul B]

Yes, that is what we call Extinction. :D

 

[WVNed]

Millions of parasites.. from my tank
they attacked
call the army...tanks...maybe a nuke
save us

 

[drstardust]

Parasites should never wipe out a tank and that can only happen in a quarantined tank. An immune tank is protected from that and if it happens, the tank was not immune. The process of keeping the fish immune from the sea has to be done correctly just as quarantine does.

My point was that is only one potential reason why not everyone has a tank for as long as you. Surely even some immune tanks are not immune to the other pressures in a human's life. :)

 

[Paul B]

Surely even some immune tanks are not immune to the other pressures in a human's life. :)

That is true, like for instance, Grand Kids and Ninja's.

 

[ngoodermuth]

"How will we react when praziquantel-resistant flukes become the norm"
I have this now actually. Went through two rounds of Prazi dosed per instructions to the estimated water volume minus live rock displacement. Did nothing to the flukes. Prazi is supposedly "mostly reef safe" it killed two cleaner shrimp, a coral banded shrimp, 8 out of 10 Acros. Chalice frags, birds nest frag, zoas are fine. So much for that idea.

Some questions here... was the tank heavily aerated (ie. Did you keep the skimmer running minus the cup, move pumps close the the surface to provide ample agitation, add air stones, etc)

Also, did you check for ammonia? Any time prazipro is recommended for in-tank treatment, it is also warned that tanks with a large bristleworm or feather duster populations can see significant die-off which can be problematic. A water change can be done and carbon added at any time to abort treatment if things look to be stressed or reacting poorly. Anytime you risk an in-tank treatment with anything, it’s a good idea to have enough water mixed up ahead of time to do a substantial water change if the need arises.

I’ve treated my tank with prazipro before, and had exactly zero losses. Cleaner shrimp was fine, all of my acros, fine. And the tank was full of wrasses.

I feel like so many times the medication itself is blamed, when there is something else amiss.

I don’t discount the prazi-resistant flukes though. They are definitely an issue right now. And the risks of treating these issue in-tank (like you’ve seen) and having it not work anyway, makes more of a case to QT from the start. Treatment would have been done in a QT, and when it didn’t work - there would be other options.

Hypo-salinity for 5 days will completely eradicate prazi-resistant flukes. As will a 12-hour bath in fenbendazole and transfer to a second, clean QT.

I wish all of you here advocating against QT and the use of medications would please spend a few months on the disease forums. Give your best advice to the folks who are watching their fish die and feel helpless. I hope your advice saves more fish from the brink of death than mine.

 

[KJoFan]

I wish all of you here advocating against QT and the use of medications would please spend a few months on the disease forums. Give your best advice to the folks who are watching their fish die and feel helpless. I hope your advice saves more fish from the brink of death than mine.

And that is a large reason right there that I have NOT given up on QT. The fear of one of those disasters happening and watching them happen in the disease forum. Wouldn't it be great though, if we could get away from the aggressive QT methods we seem to be employing currently AND not having those disasters and diseases happen?

I think that's really what @Brew12 is hoping for as well. If only we could quantify and qualify why some folks seem to have success and others don't.

 

[WVNed]

Some questions here... was the tank heavily aerated (ie. Did you keep the skimmer running minus the cup, move pumps close the the surface to provide ample agitation, add air stones, etc)

Also, did you check for ammonia? Any time prazipro is recommended for in-tank treatment, it is also warned that tanks with a large bristleworm or feather duster populations can see significant die-off which can be problematic. A water change can be done and carbon added at any time to abort treatment if things look to be stressed or reacting poorly. Anytime you risk an in-tank treatment with anything, it’s a good idea to have enough water mixed up ahead of time to do a substantial water change if the need arises.

I’ve treated my tank with prazipro before, and had exactly zero losses. Cleaner shrimp was fine, all of my acros, fine. And the tank was full of wrasses.

I feel like so many times the medication itself is blamed, when there is something else amiss.

I don’t discount the prazi-resistant flukes though. They are definitely an issue right now. And the risks of treating these issue in-tank (like you’ve seen) and having it not work anyway, makes more of a case to QT from the start. Treatment would have been done in a QT, and when it didn’t work - there would be other options.

Hypo-salinity for 5 days will completely eradicate prazi-resistant flukes. As will a 12-hour bath in fenbendazole and transfer to a second, clean QT.

I wish all of you here advocating against QT and the use of medications would please spend a few months on the disease forums. Give your best advice to the folks who are watching their fish die and feel helpless. I hope your advice saves more fish from the brink of death than mine.

You know
I am sure it would.
In my opinion good husbandry skills where things stay healthy and never get sick beats the heck out of curing them.
I watched my father and my mother and my brother reach the brink of death and then pass over it. I have a very strong aversion to death.

My fish never come close. I simply keep them in a manner where they don't get sick. If you think you care more than I do you are very very wrong. I choose to be a good steward over an avenging angel.

 

[ngoodermuth]

You know
I am sure it would.
In my opinion good husbandry skills where things stay healthy and never get sick beats the heck out of curing them.
I watched my father and my mother and my brother reach the brink of death and then pass over it. I have a very strong aversion to death.

My fish never come close. I simply keep them in a manner where they don't get sick. If you think you care more than I do you are very very wrong. I choose to be a good steward over an avenging angel.

Ok, but what do you tell the person that doesn’t have healthy fish? How do you help them? Say “well, I guess you should have had better husbandry skills ... sorry about your luck [emoji52] “

That’s what I want to know. If it is the general consensus that “medicine... BAD” how do we help the person with an active outbreak? Tell them to ride it out and better luck next time? Or do we treat the fish and in your opinion “compromise” their immune system indefinitely? If the medication makes the fish incapable of being reintroduced to the “natural” system, what do we do with it?

In my experience if you treat a fish and put it back in the tank without the proper tank treatment or fallow period... it’s just going to get sick again. Any what happens the next time you add a fish with a parasite? Since the fish you treated is no longer “immune” in your opinion, because of medication used... he will get sick again, right? So should we just let sick fish die?

I’m not assuming that anyone cares less or more than I do, I’m just wondering how you all suggest handling these types of situations without the use of medications if the fish are dying one by one and obviously not able to handle the current parasite load.

 

[Paul B]

. The fear of one of those disasters happening and watching them happen in the disease forum. Wouldn't it be great though, if we could get away from the aggressive QT methods we seem to be employing currently AND not having those disasters and diseases happen?

I think that's really what @Brew12 is hoping for as well. If only we could quantify and qualify why some folks seem to have success and others don't.

I have probably posted over 20 threads on this and wrote a book. I sometimes yell it from my window. I don't know what else to do. It seems very easy to me and I am no Einstein. :rolleyes:

 

[drstardust]

Ok, but what do you tell the person that doesn’t have healthy fish? How do you help them? Say “well, I guess you should have had better husbandry skills ... sorry about your luck [emoji52] “

That’s what I want to know. If it is the general consensus that “medicine... BAD” how do we help the person with an active outbreak? Tell them to ride it out and better luck next time? Or do we treat the fish and in your opinion “compromise” their immune system indefinitely? If the medication makes the fish incapable of being reintroduced to the “natural” system, what do we do with it?

In my experience if you treat a fish and put it back in the tank without the proper tank treatment or fallow period... it’s just going to get sick again. Any what happens the next time you add a fish with a parasite? Since the fish you treated is no longer “immune” in your opinion, because of medication used... he will get sick again, right? So should we just let sick fish die?

I’m not assuming that anyone cares less or more than I do, I’m just wondering how you all suggest handling these types of situations without the use of medications if the fish are dying one by one and obviously not able to handle the current parasite load.

I don’t think I need to beat a dead horse that I’m on the same page as you about this whole issue, but to be fair I think the vast majority of people on this thread who are against medication prophylaxis are not against treating a fish with medications if it is actively sick. The focus is how to prevent that from happening in the first place if possible. I guess I could be wrong and can’t speak for everyone, but that’s the sense I’m getting.

 

[drstardust]

I have probably posted over 20 threads on this and wrote a book. I sometimes yell it from my window. I don't know what else to do. It seems very easy to me and I am no Einstein. :rolleyes:

Genuinely curious, Paul, how many people do you know who have followed your process to a T and have been successful long term vs not? And if you don’t know of anyone who has emulated this exactly, that’s ok too. It doesn’t take away from your own successes. I’m just wondering.

 

[Brew12]

I wish all of you here advocating against QT and the use of medications would please spend a few months on the disease forums. Give your best advice to the folks who are watching their fish die and feel helpless. I hope your advice saves more fish from the brink of death than mine.

I think that's really what @Brew12 is hoping for as well. If only we could quantify and qualify why some folks seem to have success and others don't.

I have spent more than a few months helping people on the disease forums so I understand the issues which is probably why I am so passionate about it. I hate seeing fish die. I don't like it when a tank gets wiped out by velvet. I don't like it when a fish dies from a reaction to copper or stops eating when treated with prazipro. It doesn't matter to me what the cause is, my end goal is to save fish. In the fish disease section I see fish dying that weren't QT'd, that were prophylactically treated and that are in the process of being prophylactically treated.
I also don't think that the people working on improving treatment or trying to find better ways of treating should stop. If the end goal is saving fish I feel like we should pursue every option.

Ok, but what do you tell the person that doesn’t have healthy fish? How do you help them? Say “well, I guess you should have had better husbandry skills ... sorry about your luck

“

What do we tell a member from Canada or Switzerland with a sick fish? Smuggle drugs in from the US prior to buying the fish? Try to find a vet that will write a prescription for medications prior to seeing the fish? Or do we say sorry about your luck for living in the wrong country. What do we do when we in the US become "the wrong country"?

I’m not assuming that anyone cares less or more than I do, I’m just wondering how you all suggest handling these types of situations without the use of medications if the fish are dying one by one and obviously not able to handle the current parasite load.

I don't think anyone advocates not treating obviously sick fish. Lasse offers advice on how to treat fish using medications on a fairly regular basis. Paul B has an entire section in his book about how to treat fish, including the use of copper. The thing most object to is prophylactic treatment which can't legally be done in many parts of the world per our normal recommendations anyway.

I will also say that it is one reason I am excited to see what Humblefish can come up with in regards to using H2O2. That could be a game changer that should be accessible to almost everyone. Until that happens, I'm committed to pursuing every avenue in the effort to minimize fish deaths. Relying on boosting fish immunity is one of those paths I feel we (collective R2R) should be working more aggressively to research.

 

[bluprntguy]

I wish all of you here advocating against QT and the use of medications would please spend a few months on the disease forums. Give your best advice to the folks who are watching their fish die and feel helpless. I hope your advice saves more fish from the brink of death than mine.

Anyone who even remotely pays attention to any reef forum would agree with this statement.

 

[bluprntguy]

What do we tell a member from Canada or Switzerland with a sick fish? Smuggle drugs in from the US prior to buying the fish? Try to find a vet that will write a prescription for medications prior to seeing the fish? Or do we say sorry about your luck for living in the wrong country. What do we do when we in the US become "the wrong country"?

My vet is happy to write prescriptions for my tank meds. I send him links describing how people use various medications, the dose I think I need, and he calls a prescription into the pharmacy or pulls it from his shelf if he has it. He’s even commented before how he enjoys reading about it and finds it fascinating. I’ve done that to get chloroquine phosphate in the past and perhaps fluconazole before it was available. Any vet is likely to do the same. Most of them care about animals enough to take a few minutes to write a prescription for a fish.

It’s probably a better practice that people have to go to vets for these medications. They are more likely to get a better product than what we buy at pet stores. Also, I suspect the advice on dosing, timing, and interactions is better from a vet or their staff than from a pet store staff or internet board (ngoodermuth being the clear exception). If people have to go to vets to get these medications the vets offices will become more well versed and able to respond. I actually see this as a likely positive development.

 

[MnFish1]

I wish all of you here advocating against QT and the use of medications would please spend a few months on the disease forums. Give your best advice to the folks who are watching their fish die and feel helpless. I hope your advice saves more fish from the brink of death than mine.

I don't hear many people advocation 'against' QT (observation) - and treatment with medication when there is a disease. Most people are just saying 'what they personally do' (Thats all I've done). You asked what advice to give - the answer - if your fish has a disease - treat it. If the fish in your display tank get an illness - take them out and treat them for that disease. I personally am not sure about the fallow period for various reasons - if you decide to go that way - fine. But - the main advice I would give is do your best to PREVENT the disease in the first place. Buy from outstanding sources (not necessarily the cheapest) - try to observe the fish for a time before purchase (and the other fish around them). Keep your water/parameters/stocking density low. Try to have filter feeders/high flow/and perhaps something like an ozonizer/UV, etc.

In my experience if you treat a fish and put it back in the tank without the proper tank treatment or fallow period... it’s just going to get sick again. Any what happens the next time you add a fish with a parasite? Since the fish you treated is no longer “immune” in your opinion, because of medication used... he will get sick again, right? So should we just let sick fish die?

Its interesting - that one of the 'stress events' that can trigger an outbreak is actually adding 'non-immune' fish to a tank that has even a small amount of CI or velvet. The thought being that the non-immune fish develops the disease - which causes rapid increase in parasites which causes even the immune to succumb.

One thing I object to - and its Germaine to the OP - is people see a spot on their fish - they start treating - its not better in a day - they switch or add more and more and more. And this is seen quite often on the disease forum. Fish end up being treated with multiple agents - when one agent would have likely sufficed. This was the most common reason (according to a scientist at one of the major 'fish' medication companies for fish death or the apparent 'failure of a product to 'work''. If people want to keep up this 'shotgun' approach to medicating fish - we probably will end up like Canada - where you need a veterinarian to order a prescription. And veterinarians are not likely to prescribe for example fluconazole for an algae problem. (PS - the way this would likely work is there would be a specialist who starts a business - people send in the picture of their disease/answer a history questionaire and the vet makes a recommendation)

 

[ngoodermuth]

I have spent more than a few months helping people on the disease forums so I understand the issues which is probably why I am so passionate about it. I hate seeing fish die. I don't like it when a tank gets wiped out by velvet. I don't like it when a fish dies from a reaction to copper or stops eating when treated with prazipro. It doesn't matter to me what the cause is, my end goal is to save fish. In the fish disease section I see fish dying that weren't QT'd, that were prophylactically treated and that are in the process of being prophylactically treated.
I also don't think that the people working on improving treatment or trying to find better ways of treating should stop. If the end goal is saving fish I feel like we should pursue every option.


What do we tell a member from Canada or Switzerland with a sick fish? Smuggle drugs in from the US prior to buying the fish? Try to find a vet that will write a prescription for medications prior to seeing the fish? Or do we say sorry about your luck for living in the wrong country. What do we do when we in the US become "the wrong country"?


I don't think anyone advocates not treating obviously sick fish. Lasse offers advice on how to treat fish using medications on a fairly regular basis. Paul B has an entire section in his book about how to treat fish, including the use of copper. The thing most object to is prophylactic treatment which can't legally be done in many parts of the world per our normal recommendations anyway.

I will also say that it is one reason I am excited to see what Humblefish can come up with in regards to using H2O2. That could be a game changer that should be accessible to almost everyone. Until that happens, I'm committed to pursuing every avenue in the effort to minimize fish deaths. Relying on boosting fish immunity is one of those paths I feel we (collective R2R) should be working more aggressively to research.

I wasn’t referring to your original post/article as to some of the posts that have followed. And I know you have helped in the disease forum regularly.

I’m just wondering, if medications remove a fish’s ability to be “immune” how do we re-introduce those fish to a parasite-rich environment after treatment?

As far as helping people in other countries... I personally try to help them the best I can with whatever they can get ahold of or have available to them. Whether it is copper, hypo-salinity, H202, TTM, etc. In Canada for example, copper is generally still readily available. H202 can possibly used as an alternative to acriflavine or methylene blue, hypo-salinity can treat flukes, the only real issue we are running into is treating aggressive bacterial infections, brook, and uronema without any available antibiotics.

In this case, they might have to enlist the assistance of a veterinarian. Unfortunately, this is all we can do.

Here is what humble has published so far for using H202 as an antiseptic and against velvet:

https://humble.fish/hydrogen-peroxide/

 

[MnFish1]

It’s probably a better practice that people have to go to vets for these medications. They are more likely to get a better product than what we buy at pet stores. Also, I suspect the advice on dosing, timing, and interactions is better from a vet or their staff than from a pet store staff or internet board (ngoodermuth being the clear exception).

I agree with this - to me one of the positives with the forum is that a person with a problem gets a lot of advice - one of the negatives is that there may be 10 different treatments all of which alone can have toxicities - who knows what will happen when 2 3 or 4 treatments are being used together

 

[ngoodermuth]

One thing I object to - and its Germaine to the OP - is people see a spot on their fish - they start treating - its not better in a day - they switch or add more and more and more. And this is seen quite often on the disease forum. Fish end up being treated with multiple agents - when one agent would have likely sufficed. This was the most common reason (according to a scientist at one of the major 'fish' medication companies for fish death or the apparent 'failure of a product to 'work''. If people want to keep up this 'shotgun' approach to medicating fish - we probably will end up like Canada - where you need a veterinarian to order a prescription. And veterinarians are not likely to prescribe for example fluconazole for an algae problem. (PS - the way this would likely work is there would be a specialist who starts a business - people send in the picture of their disease/answer a history questionaire and the vet makes a recommendation)

I agree with this. I’m often urging folks to finish one treatment before starting another. Especially when it comes to antibiotics, once you have made a decision to treat it absolutely needs to be committed to. You should treat for at least 10-14 days, before deciding it is not working and changing to another course of treatment.

Copper, should not be aborted for any reason other than a fish is not tolerant to the copper itself. If a fish develops a bacterial infection while in copper (they often do) then you need to treat the infection as best you can until the copper treatment has been completed.

Hot Rocks recommendation for using 2 QT tanks that only requires 14 days of exposure to copper or CP, helps this tremendously. You can do the best you can to keep the bacterial infection at bay for 14 days, transfer to another QT and then hammer the infection alone.

Just like with people, I’d never suggest cutting a treatment short to start another... unless the treatment itself is causing serious harm to the fish.