A sideline discussion on Copper and overall benefits/detriments of prophylactic treatment in QT

[Daniel@R2R]

This discussion originally took place in this thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/q...ired-first-before-display-tank.1008421/unread

It has been moved to this thread as a separate discussion since this sidelined the topic of original thread. This way both conversations can continue.

 

[Subsea]

Well according to the quarantine guidelines, if I am treating the quarantine tank with copper, having live rock/sand and/or filter pads is a no-no.

Unless parasites like ich are obvious, why would you assume that copper treatment is necessary. Cooper compromises fish immune system and destroys bacteria. In fish, as in people, healthy gut cavity bacteria are your best weapon against pathogens.

At most, I would isolate and observe. Stress is the major contributor to fish morality.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Unless parasites like ich are obvious, why would you assume that copper treatment is necessary. Cooper compromises fish immune system and destroys bacteria. In fish, as in people, healthy gut cavity bacteria are your best weapon against pathogens.

At most, I would isolate and observe. Stress is the major contributor to fish morality.

Just to mention - when people say "copper" there are different types. Amine-based copper products do not kill bacteria in any appreciable amount, and the fish's immune system is not harmed. Ionic copper can harm more bacteria (25% by my estimation), and can be a direct toxin to fish.

I've never heard of any evidence that beneficial gut microbes have any benefit in controlling external parasitic diseases.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

How about if I keep them 5 feet apart? Would this work?

Generally, ten to twelve feet apart is the number most people suggest. Much more important than distance is to keep them physically isolated - so don't move tank tools or your hands from tank to tank.

Biosecurity

A short introduction to aquarium biosecurity

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Subsea]

“I've never heard of any evidence that beneficial gut microbes have any benefit in controlling external parasitic diseases.“

@Jay Hemdal
In your experience, does stress effect fish immune system?

Because stress is hard to quantify in fish, it too often is ignored as a consideration for prevention. What happened to

“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!“

In human autopsy for tooo many COVID deaths, a compromised immune system was the underlying cause of death.

Healthy gut cavity bacteria is a precursor to a healthy immune system in people and in fish. I am fairly certain we can find peer reviewed scientific literature on this area.

 

[Subsea]

“I've never heard of any evidence that beneficial gut microbes have any benefit in controlling external parasitic diseases.“

@Jay Hemdal
In your experience, does stress effect fish immune system?

Because stress is hard to quantify in fish, it too often is ignored as a consideration for prevention. What happened to

“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!“

In human autopsy for tooo many COVID deaths, a compromised immune system was the underlying cause of death.

Healthy gut cavity bacteria is a precursor to a healthy immune system in people and in fish. I am fairly certain we can find peer reviewed scientific literature on this area.

First link that I gogled.

Current understanding on the roles of gut microbiota in fish disease and immunity

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

”Gut microbiota can affect fish physiology, development, life span, immunity, and barriers against pathogens (Burns et al., 2016; Nie et al., 2017; Smith et al., 2017; Yan et al., 2016). Therefore, the gut microbiota plays an indispensable role in fish fitness. Several recent reviews have centered on the diversity and functions of bacterial communities in healthy fish (de Bruijn et al., 2017), as well as on the external factors that affect fish gut microbiota (Wang et al., 2017) and interactions between gut microbiota and innate immunity in fish (Gómez & Balcázar, 2008; Nie et al., 2017). However, most previous studies have focused on factors that govern healthy gut microbiota, such as diet, rearing conditions, and fish genotype (Schmidt et al., 2015; Sullam et al., 2012; Yan et al., 2016). In contrast, few studies have reported on the interplay among gut microbiota, fish immunity, and disease (Nie et al., 2017). In this commentary, we summarize current knowledge on the associations between fish immunity, gut microbiota, and invading intestinal pathogens. We also highlight recent progress in uncovering the ecological processes of fish diseases“

 

[Spare time]

First link that I gogled.

Current understanding on the roles of gut microbiota in fish disease and immunity

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

”Gut microbiota can affect fish physiology, development, life span, immunity, and barriers against pathogens (Burns et al., 2016; Nie et al., 2017; Smith et al., 2017; Yan et al., 2016). Therefore, the gut microbiota plays an indispensable role in fish fitness. Several recent reviews have centered on the diversity and functions of bacterial communities in healthy fish (de Bruijn et al., 2017), as well as on the external factors that affect fish gut microbiota (Wang et al., 2017) and interactions between gut microbiota and innate immunity in fish (Gómez & Balcázar, 2008; Nie et al., 2017). However, most previous studies have focused on factors that govern healthy gut microbiota, such as diet, rearing conditions, and fish genotype (Schmidt et al., 2015; Sullam et al., 2012; Yan et al., 2016). In contrast, few studies have reported on the interplay among gut microbiota, fish immunity, and disease (Nie et al., 2017). In this commentary, we summarize current knowledge on the associations between fish immunity, gut microbiota, and invading intestinal pathogens. We also highlight recent progress in uncovering the ecological processes of fish diseases“

Gut microbiome is awesome.

 

[Subsea]

Gut microbiome is awesome.

A microbiologist friend incltdes “Microbial Overlords” in his signature.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

First link that I gogled.

Current understanding on the roles of gut microbiota in fish disease and immunity

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

”Gut microbiota can affect fish physiology, development, life span, immunity, and barriers against pathogens (Burns et al., 2016; Nie et al., 2017; Smith et al., 2017; Yan et al., 2016). Therefore, the gut microbiota plays an indispensable role in fish fitness. Several recent reviews have centered on the diversity and functions of bacterial communities in healthy fish (de Bruijn et al., 2017), as well as on the external factors that affect fish gut microbiota (Wang et al., 2017) and interactions between gut microbiota and innate immunity in fish (Gómez & Balcázar, 2008; Nie et al., 2017). However, most previous studies have focused on factors that govern healthy gut microbiota, such as diet, rearing conditions, and fish genotype (Schmidt et al., 2015; Sullam et al., 2012; Yan et al., 2016). In contrast, few studies have reported on the interplay among gut microbiota, fish immunity, and disease (Nie et al., 2017). In this commentary, we summarize current knowledge on the associations between fish immunity, gut microbiota, and invading intestinal pathogens. We also highlight recent progress in uncovering the ecological processes of fish diseases“

Don't misunderstand their conclusion though - this paper dealt with failure of probiotics, and that bacterial gut flora helped overcome some antibiotic resistance bacterial issues and "invading intestinal pathogens" . It does not mention protozoan or metazoan diseases - and those are the ones we are dealing with externally in our fish.

Jay

 

[Subsea]

Don't misunderstand their conclusion though - this paper dealt with failure of probiotics, and that bacterial gut flora helped overcome some antibiotic resistance bacterial issues and "invading intestinal pathogens" . It does not mention protozoan or metazoan diseases - and those are the ones we are dealing with externally in our fish.

Jay

While the study focused on internal parasites, the overall implication was that stress contributes to fish mortality from all invasions.

From my observations, fear of parasites have resulted in stressful quarantine protocoal implemented by the average hobiest, resulting in too many threads on disease & treatment forums.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Don’t misunderstand the overall implication that stress contributes to fish mortality from all invasions.

I'm just pointing out that the conclusion of this paper was misapplied.

Stress reduction only goes so far in the reduction of protozoan and metazoan fish diseases, where the disease organism itself is the major stressor.

What I am trying to avoid is the all too often heard comments, "feed well and reduce stress and your fish will be fine". That is patently untrue - just like if I go into the woods, I get just as many ticks as if my diet and stress were low as if they are high.


Jay

 

[Subsea]

I'm just pointing out that the conclusion of this paper was misapplied.

Stress reduction only goes so far in the reduction of protozoan and metazoan fish diseases, where the disease organism itself is the major stressor.

What I am trying to avoid is the all too often heard comments, "feed well and reduce stress and your fish will be fine". That is patently untrue - just like if I go into the woods, I get just as many ticks as if my diet and stress were low as if they are high.


Jay

Let’s stay focused on fish immune system. Why do some fish resist succumbing to ich parasite, in the same tank as dying fish?

Considering that fish slime is the primary defense against external parasite invasions, also consider that fish immune system can adjust chemistry of his personal slime coat:
gene expression.

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Stress-Its-Role-in-Fish-Disease.pdf

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Let’s stay focused on fish immune system. Why do some fish resist succumbing to ich parasite, in the same tank as dying fish?

Considering that fish slime is the primary defense against external parasite invasions, also consider that fish immune system can adjust chemistry of his personal slime coat:
gene expression.

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Stress-Its-Role-in-Fish-Disease.pdf

Different fish contracting marine ich at different rates is mostly due to individual differences in species; fish with cycloid scales will develop ich faster and more severely than fish with ctenoid scales. Some scaleless fish also contract ich easily, while others, like eels, are innately immune.

As I said, the mere presence of these parasite reproductive stages is a stressor, called propagule pressure. That can overwhelm any immune response.

Here is an excerpt from my disease book:

Immunity to disease​

The ability for a fish to fight off a disease (or not) is based on the level of immunity it has. A physically stressed fish will have a lower immunity level and be more prone to developing disease. However, people tend to rely too much on immunity, and they think that if they offer the fish a great diet, it will be (mostly) free of disease. Some people extrapolate that even further and think that if they have a sick fish, if they feed it will, they can cure it (the chicken soup syndrome). The reality is that fish have a less developed immune response than mammals do, and we know that with humans, even the best diet and exercise does not prevent all diseases and in some instances really doesn’t help much at all. Immunity varies between the parasite involved. Bacterial diseases are rarely communicable because the fish have good defense (skin structure) and good immunity against them. Fish don’t have much immunity against some parasites like Neobenedenia flukes.

Innate immunity – this is the fish’s genetic predisposition to being able to fight off infections using its normal antibody system. There are differences seen between species of fish, with the example of Achilles tangs being much more prone to developing Cryptocaryon infections than are yellow tangs. Innate immunity is the baseline level, the starting point and nothing really changes that in a given individual.


Immunity conferred by good diet/environment – Fish with lower stress levels will have better immunity. Keeping the fish in a stable aquarium, with no aggressive tankmates, good water quality and a great diet will help boost its immunity. However, people often fail to understand that the disease organism themselves can be a major stressor and can override all immunity conferred by a good environment. It is a grave mistake to attempt to treat an active disease outbreak solely by increasing the quality of the diet and environment.


Acquired immunity – This type of immunity is mounted by a fish after exposure to (and survival from) some disease outbreak. Antibodies are created to help the fish fight off future infections from that disease organism. Too many times in aquariums, the fish does not survive the disease challenge, so no acquired immunity is possible. In most cases, the only functional benefit for this is seen with sub-lethal viral diseases such as Lymphocystis; a fish that recovers from that disease rarely acquires it again. Wild fish have very little acquired immunity by virtue of not being infected with disease organisms to a high enough degree (or if they are, they get eaten by predators due to their weakened state). Immune responses in fish seem strongest against viruses and least against multi-celled parasites such as flukes. Parasites living on the skin or gills of fish are less exposed to the antibodies, so acquired immunity to protozoans and metazoans such as Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium and flukes is only partial and transient.


Jay

 

[Subsea]

Jay,
Research money for ornamental reef fish is scarce. I rely on academia thru Agriculture Corporate extension service for my information.

The research I share is as good as it gets in academia. For you to encourage chemical treatments before good husbandry is for me a serious problem. It reminds me of a surgeon who sees everything as an operation, when a diet change would be sufficient.

 

[Spare time]

Jay,
Research money for ornamental reef fish is scarce. I rely on academia thru Agriculture Corporate extension service for my information.

The research I share is as good as it gets in academia. For you to encourage chemical treatments before good husbandry is for me a serious problem. It reminds me of a surgeon who sees everything as an operation, when a diet change would be sufficient.

"Chemical treatment" is good husbandry. Its the same idea of being vaccinated against a disease. Yes being healthy in general will help your body deal with an infection, but its better to get vaccinated than having to be put in a hospital and having your body go through hell. It is the same reason people exposed to deadly diseases are quarentined and treated so they don't die and possibly infect/kill others. I also think this is another use of making the word "chemical" seem spooky or bad as if non-chemical is more natural or healthier in some way (a naturalistic fallacy).

 

[Subsea]

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Stress-Its-Role-in-Fish-Disease.pdf

Defense Against Disease

Protective barriers against infection
Mucus
1. Any stress causes chemical changes in mucus which decrease its effectiveness as a chemical barrier against see Figure 2.

Defense Against Disease
Protective barriers against infection
1.Mucus (slime coat) is a physical barrier that inhibits entry of disease organisms from the environment into the fish. It is also a chemical barrier because it contains enzymes (lysozymes) and antibodies (immunoglobulins) that can kill invading organisms. Mucus also lubricates the fish, which aids movement through the water, and it is also important for osmoregulation.
2. Scales and skin function as a physical barrier that protects the fish against injury. When these are damaged, a window is opened for bacteria and other organisms to start an infection.
3. Inflammation (nonspecific cellular response) is a cellular response to an invading protein. An invading protein can be a bacteria, a virus, a parasite, a fungus, or a toxin. Inflammation is characterized by pain, swelling, redness, heat, and loss of function. It is a protective response and is an attempt by the body to wall off and destroy the invader.


This point is pivotal in the conversation for a learned immune response (gene expression) in fish dna code.

4. Antibodies (specific cellular response) are molecules spe- cifically formed to fight invading proteins or organisms. The first time the fish is exposed to an invader, antibodies are formed that will protect the fish from future infection by the same organism. Exposure to sublethal concentra- tions of pathogens is extremely important for a fish to develop a competent immune system. An animal raised in a sterile environment will have little protection from disease. Young animals do not have an immune response, which works as efficiently as the immune response in older animals, and therefore, may be susceptible to disease.

 

[Subsea]

Because this point is pivotal in fish immune system dna response to external parasite invasion, I will park here

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Stress-Its-Role-in-Fish-Disease.pdf

4. Antibodies (specific cellular response) are molecules spe- cifically formed to fight invading proteins or organisms. The first time the fish is exposed to an invader, antibodies are formed that will protect the fish from future infection by the same organism. Exposure to sublethal concentra- tions of pathogens is extremely important for a fish to develop a competent immune system. An animal raised in a sterile environment will have little protection from disease. Young animals do not have an immune response, which works as efficiently as the immune response in older animals, and therefore, may be susceptible to disease.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

Well Homer, my bad for the hijacking. The thread has addressed conflicting viewpoints:
Welcome to Reefing.

 

[Pickle_soup]

Because this point is pivotal in fish immune system dna response to external parasite invasion, I will park here

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Stress-Its-Role-in-Fish-Disease.pdf

4. Antibodies (specific cellular response) are molecules spe- cifically formed to fight invading proteins or organisms. The first time the fish is exposed to an invader, antibodies are formed that will protect the fish from future infection by the same organism. Exposure to sublethal concentra- tions of pathogens is extremely important for a fish to develop a competent immune system. An animal raised in a sterile environment will have little protection from disease. Young animals do not have an immune response, which works as efficiently as the immune response in older animals, and therefore, may be susceptible to disease.

Did you not read this part?
Biological stressors:1.Population density - crowding
2.Other species of fish - aggression, territoriality, lateral swimming space requirements
3.Microorganisms - pathogenic and nonpathogenic
4.Macroorganisms - internal and external parasites

 

[Subsea]

Did you not read this part?
Biological stressors:1.Population density - crowding
2.Other species of fish - aggression, territoriality, lateral swimming space requirements
3.Microorganisms - pathogenic and nonpathogenic
4.Macroorganisms - internal and external parasites

Yes, I read everything in each link that I posted.

As in most things in life, there is no perfect answer. There are pros & cons to every solution. Knowledge is one thing, discernment of data is another thing and the application of that knowledge is Wisdom.