Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

[MissyTwitch]

What has worked for me:
- Create Competition for space => [[[[Having a dirty tank => don't clean glass, turn off protein skimmer, keep chaeto/algae scrubber running, dont change filter socks]]]] or [[[adding Live Phyto/Zoo plankton daily until issue is resolved]]].
- UV Light and Ozone => make sure when getting a UV light that you do overkill rather than minimum requirements for your tank other wise its pointless. Keep UV light on 24hours/day until situation clears up. Then you can switch to keeping it on only during the day giving you the opportunity to continue seeding/reseed your tank with Phyto/Zooplankton that mostly come out at night.

 

[David_Cool]

What has worked for me:
- Create Competition for space => [[[[Having a dirty tank => don't clean glass, turn off protein skimmer, keep chaeto/algae scrubber running, dont change filter socks]]]] or [[[adding Live Phyto/Zoo plankton daily until issue is resolved]]].
- UV Light and Ozone => make sure when getting a UV light that you do overkill rather than minimum requirements for your tank other wise its pointless. Keep UV light on 24hours/day until situation clears up. Then you can switch to keeping it on only during the day giving you the opportunity to continue seeding/reseed your tank with Phyto/Zooplankton that mostly come out at night.

You're talking about a sterilization UV-B in the filter right? Not a supplemental UV-A for corals and nems?

 

[MissyTwitch]

You're talking about a sterilization UV-B in the filter right? Not a supplemental UV-A for corals and nems?

Its not a supplemental light for corals. Its 150watt Emperor Aquatics Light. The spectrum is not UV-A or UV-B it is UV-C [germicidal]. I always recommend getting a size up on the UV Light then the tank actually needs. How you regulate the flow will determine what how germicidal it is.

 

[AtlCPA]

If anyone has thoughts on my thread where someone suggested it may be the this type dino’s, please let me know.

I’ve ordered a microscope to help with the ID.

One thing I can add today is there is a decent amount of buildup in the glass today which makes me hold out hope it may just be diatoms from bad/old RODI filters letting silica through.

If anyone has any thoughts on my situation, you can reply in this thread vs the linked below.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/annoying-dirty-sand-bed-issue-in-my-180.588201/page-2

 

[KMG]

Ok entire bottle is gone, sailfert is garbage lol still 0 however I see algae all over the glass, no diatoms in the sand though. However when I started dosing I had gone from coolia to amphidium. now when I look I have a trifecta. I feel like when I weaken one another comes back strong and this is my issue I am having. I stated with coolia, developed amphidium. Now when I look I see coolia, amphidium, and ostreopsis. I am kind of at a cross road and have no idea what to do at this point any more its been 13 months I hate to keep throwing money at a problem that feels so unbeatable. Any advice? I attached videos of what I see and what my tank looks like. Its weird it does not look terrible. All on the sand, and one string that likes to grow on the toadstool. the ostreoposis grows and coolia on the one string no where else, and amphidium in the sand. Oh any every one is happy, parameters- N-8 P-.3(a little high for my liking), Calcium - 420, Alk, 8.4dkh(low for my liking as well dosed today), salinity 1.026. will do water change

Done thath, been there
UVC at low flow 24/7 at min 0.5 W/gallon and hydrogenperoxide 3% 3-5 ml/10 gallon 2 - 3 times a day with min 4 h between doses did work for me several times. Mostly gone in 72 h. Shrimps will die from hydrogenperoxide. Corals, snails and anemones will get grumpy. The N, P values does not seem to be the trigger if not 0. It's the swing in those when adding Nopox or other media acc. to my experience

 

[Chad_P]

Done thath, been there
UVC at low flow 24/7 at min 0.5 W/gallon and hydrogenperoxide 3% 3-5 ml/10 gallon 2 - 3 times a day with min 4 h between doses did work for me several times. Mostly gone in 72 h. Shrimps will die from hydrogenperoxide. Corals, snails and anemones will get grumpy. The N, P values does not seem to be the trigger if not 0. It's the swing in those when adding Nopox or other media acc. to my experience

Agreed. I seem to get dinos when I drop my NO3 to quickly. Happened once when using NoPox and again after getting aggressive with water changes trying to use up a batch of salt. From my personal experience my tank doesn’t like to go below 25ppm NO3. If I try to lower ever again it will be extremely slow.

 

[KMG]

Agreed. I seem to get dinos when I drop my NO3 to quickly. Happened once when using NoPox and again after getting aggressive with water changes trying to use up a batch of salt. From my personal experience my tank doesn’t like to go below 25ppm NO3. If I try to lower ever again it will be extremely slow.

Exactly my experience. The latest dino outbreak was thanks to using Nopox reading like 50 on nitrates. Thought it would be no problem beating it down to like 20 with the higher recomended dose. Thought it would be safe if i support dosed P... 1,2,3 and boom there was the dino. For now on I will only use cheato to lower the nitrates.

 

[Chad_P]

Exactly my experience. The latest dino outbreak was thanks to using Nopox reading like 50 on nitrates. Thought it would be no problem beating it down to like 20 with the higher recomended dose. Thought it would be safe if i support dosed P... 1,2,3 and boom there was the dino. For now on I will only use cheato to lower the nitrates.

I know people have success with NoPox so don’t want to knock it. But I did go slow with dosing and never saw a decrease in NO3 then dinos hit. I think each tank handles this differently based on setup.

 

[Neoalchemist]

Done thath, been there
UVC at low flow 24/7 at min 0.5 W/gallon and hydrogenperoxide 3% 3-5 ml/10 gallon 2 - 3 times a day with min 4 h between doses did work for me several times. Mostly gone in 72 h. Shrimps will die from hydrogenperoxide. Corals, snails and anemones will get grumpy. The N, P values does not seem to be the trigger if not 0. It's the swing in those when adding Nopox or other media acc. to my experience

I also been there done that but what kicked it for me was the addition of a silicate dosing regime.

 

[taricha]

UVC at low flow 24/7 at min 0.5 W/gallon and hydrogenperoxide 3% 3-5 ml/10 gallon 2 - 3 times a day with min 4 h between doses did work for me several times. Mostly gone in 72 h. Shrimps will die from hydrogenperoxide. Corals, snails and anemones will get grumpy.

Most amphidinium (large cell) that show up in people's tanks are low or non toxic and they don't attach to corals. So I personally wouldn't consider a treatment for them that I expected to kill/stress livestock. Just my POV.

 

[Torqued]

I do plan to read this entire thread, but quick question. Are you all finding that battling these by using carbon dosing and dosing bacteria strains (like Dr Tims) and or zeovit strains effective? Im contemplating pushing my tank to the edge of bacteria bloom to fight off these little jerks. Im almost certain this is the strain I have. Everything I am reading lines right up. They dont appear SUPER toxic, though they do seem to be having a negative effect on my SPS (low PE and growth is near halted). LPS PE is also somewhat diminished, but not nearly to the extent as the SPS. CUC seems to be doing ok. It looks like my Sea Hare does eat them, and has not died as a result, and all my fish SEEM ok atm. My plan is to go full bore carbon/bacteria dosing, and siphone this SHtuff out at least once a week. Hopefully I can get back control!!!!

Here are my pics: (CAN I PLEASE GET A CONFIRMATION ONE WAY OR ANOTHER ON SPECIES?)

 

[Torqued]

Just curious, but why do we prefer to use Diatoms to out compete the Dinos rather than bacteria??? Wouldnt a bacteria based competition method be just as effective at out competing these things, without causing a whole different bloom to deal with?

 

[MissyTwitch]

Just curious, but why do we prefer to use Diatoms to out compete the Dinos rather than bacteria??? Wouldnt a bacteria based competition method be just as effective at out competing these things, without causing a whole different bloom to deal with?

This is a copy from another one of my post about Vanadium Build Up. It applies to your question: If you are using bacteria dosing like in a zeovit system Vanadium can be found in the bacteria you are using. It’s used in part of the process in lowering your ammonia/nitrates. However, when the bacteria die off faster then they replicate [lack of food and other factors], then you are adding more, your soluble levels of Vandium will go up, other things like Cyanobacteria will then use it to grow. It’s one of the reasons you have to be careful about avoiding too much dosing of zeobac once you get it established in your system.

Now back to what you should do => Daily dosing of live Phytoplankton/Zooplanton for two weeks [ if you can get it set up in you system its best, UV and Ozone has to be off for this strategy to work]. It will out compete the cyano/dinos. Allowing only your nitrates [not phosphates] to rise a bit. Other strategies: Ozone/UV light

 

[Torqued]

This is a copy from another one of my post about Vanadium Build Up. It applies to your question: If you are using bacteria dosing like in a zeovit system Vanadium can be found in the bacteria you are using. It’s used in part of the process in lowering your ammonia/nitrates. However, when the bacteria die off faster then they replicate [lack of food and other factors], then you are adding more, your soluble levels of Vandium will go up, other things like Cyanobacteria will then use it to grow. It’s one of the reasons you have to be careful about avoiding too much dosing of zeobac once you get it established in your system.

Now back to what you should do => Daily dosing of live Phytoplankton/Zooplanton for two weeks [ if you can get it set up in you system its best, UV and Ozone has to be off for this strategy to work]. It will out compete the cyano/dinos. Allowing only your nitrates [not phosphates] to rise a bit. Other strategies: Ozone/UV light

Thank you for the reply. My only concern with this approach is it seems to be a short term approach, where doing zeovit or some other regular husbandry like activity is a long term plan.

Honestly i see sooooooo much conflicting information here. Some say UV, others pods and phyto, others suggest bacteria....and nearly everyone says that that other methods wont work. This is quite tiresome to say the least.

Some of this is likely due to the fact that there are many species of dino, and the treatment of them appears quite different based upon that. But all the solutions seem to be temp to me.... especially trying to spark a diatom outbreak to compete, only to have to then get rid of those. Frustrating...

This is why my hope was to just beat them out in a marathon of active bacteria/carbon dosing. The part where this dino can consume organics is what threw me, which means i would have to starve my corals too, or greatly up my use of bacteria that conses organics like the Tims Waste Away.

 

[brandon429]

#591
half of whats shown are diatoms mixed in, neat pic to be able to visually tie that back in to the coverage pic

 

[saltyhog]

Part of the reason for wanting diatoms over bacteria is I believe the diatoms actually compete for space with the dinos....while bacteria do not. Also, everything you do to promote bacterial growth can fuel the dinos (silicate does not) and could lower your No3/PO4 which is not what you want with dinos.

You are correct that how you treat depends greatly on which species. Rock and coral attacking dinos that go in to the water column at night are the ones susceptible to UV. The ones you have are not.

 

[Neoalchemist]

Just curious, but why do we prefer to use Diatoms to out compete the Dinos rather than bacteria??? Wouldnt a bacteria based competition method be just as effective at out competing these things, without causing a whole different bloom to deal with?

Quick reason is, it works, diatoms drive out dinos and certain diatoms will chemically fight them.
A few other reasons, diatoms grow on the same surfaces. So they locally compete for resources rather than bacteria ,which mostly consume from the water column or their strategic zone, ie. Sludge Busters that target detritus.(dino's can sustain themselves with the mucus web they create and the organic they sequester)
Diatoms are readily consumed by most of your clean up crew.
My potter's angel and kole tang love them. It's awesome to see fish and inverrts acting naturally and grazing all of the surfaces rather than hibernating in the sand or swimming around avoiding touching anything.
Silicates don't build up or require water changes to remove. As they are consumed the supply is exausted.
A diatoms bloom cost about 10 cents (if you buy bulk)and lasts nearly two weeks. With bacteria you are dosing at least twice a week. Cost easily adds up let me tell you. I went that route and I'm not really sure looking back that I saw any improvement for that period of time. I tried Dr. Tim's method and the only benefit I can point now was Tim's surface cleaner in conjunction with blackouts and considerable uv for ostreopsis (did nothing for )amphidimium.

Your approach does have serious merit. Many claim to have success with bacterial methods but I don't remember any while fighting amphidimium. Quite a few successes with Micro-bacter 7 stick out in memory but again not for amph.

 

[Entz]

What is the overall opinion on dosing Phyto? I could be very wrong but in decent numbers they would take up nutrients and help starve out the dinos. I am not sure in the hierarchy of who gets what first if they would get them first vs dinos or bacteria. Could they also feed the dinos (?) or pods which dinos can attack?

On an unrelated note, while I trying to find information on this and came across this article on "Amphidinium carterae". https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691843/pdf/15475328.pdf they found that darkeness > 6 days actually killed most of them. Which was interesting. My guess is it was more the bacteria was able to take hold when the dinos go weakened.

 

[Neoalchemist]

What is the overall opinion on dosing Phyto? I could be very wrong but in decent numbers they would take up nutrients and help starve out the dinos. I am not sure in the hierarchy of who gets what first if they would get them first vs dinos or bacteria. Could they also feed the dinos (?) or pods which dinos can attack?

On an unrelated note, while I trying to find information on this and came across this article on "Amphidinium carterae". https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691843/pdf/15475328.pdf they found that darkeness > 6 days actually killed most of them. Which was interesting. My guess is it was more the bacteria was able to take hold when the dinos go weakened.

Pods are better in the recovery portion of the fight. Pods dont stand a chance when dinos are in full bloom.
Perhaps @taricha can comment on the blackout part. I believe he has done some test with amphidinium living happily for something like 6 weeks in total darkness.
I personally haven't been able to blackout long enough to affect amphidinium and blackout was one of my best tools against other dinos.

 

[MissyTwitch]

Thank you for the reply. My only concern with this approach is it seems to be a short term approach, where doing zeovit or some other regular husbandry like activity is a long term plan.

Honestly i see sooooooo much conflicting information here. Some say UV, others pods and phyto, others suggest bacteria....and nearly everyone says that that other methods wont work. This is quite tiresome to say the least.

Some of this is likely due to the fact that there are many species of dino, and the treatment of them appears quite different based upon that. But all the solutions seem to be temp to me.... especially trying to spark a diatom outbreak to compete, only to have to then get rid of those. Frustrating...

This is why my hope was to just beat them out in a marathon of active bacteria/carbon dosing. The part where this dino can consume organics is what threw me, which means i would have to starve my corals too, or greatly up my use of bacteria that conses organics like the Tims Waste Away.

There is no one way to do things. The basic idea is to either allow a dirty tank to prevent the formation diatoms, dinoflagellates. They exist mostly in low nutrient tanks in which a lot of us have to make our corals happy and more colorful. However, typically they are not supposed to out compete whats in the ocean. So yeah you can try Ozone/Protein Skimmer/UV Light, but the problem will still be there. I personally like the natural way to out compete them [adding phyto/zooplankton as much as needed to solve the problem], then allow my tank some room to keep nitrates up and phosphates down. You are right though to each their own. However, regardless of the species or what not, it doesn't really matter; the only reason they exist in these numbers within an aquarium is cause in a low nutrient system, they don't have anything to compete against cause we have all starved them out.