Any one doing Tropic Marin Balling system?

[Trevor40]

Yes, I use the recipe where you buy each separate ingredient. I only dose 18ml/day and it keeps up with my Red Sea reefer 170 packed with acros. Great solution and I can’t believe it only needs one dosing pump.

 

[FlyPenFly]

I guess the only disadvantage to it is that you can’t absolutely precisely control Ca and Mg. I haven’t found that really matters that much though as long as there aren’t wild swings frequently.

 

[Trevor40]

Exactly. I do every other day small water changes to help with that but if it did get out of wack then you could supplement the others.

I typically don’t chase numbers. I test Alk weekly and adjust. A few times a year I’ll test Ca. Not best practice but works for me as Calcium seems to be in range.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Can you make 5 gallon batches of it and will it keep long term?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you make 5 gallon batches of it and will it keep long term?

Of what, exactly?

 

[FlyPenFly]

This recipe https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-tropic-marin-all-for-reef-one-part-dosing-solution.657010/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This recipe https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-tropic-marin-all-for-reef-one-part-dosing-solution.657010/

The main concern over time is if you dilute it, bacteria may grow in it and consume the formate. If it stays concentrated enough, it should last a long while.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Hmm why would it dilute? I don’t plan on putting it in the ATO? I just prefer making larger batches at once.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hmm why would it dilute? I don’t plan on putting it in the ATO? I just prefer making larger batches at once.

It wouldn't only get diluted if you added additional water to it for some reason (like matching the delivery rate to a specific pump).

 

[Dr. Jim]

I have the T.M. Balling system but am hesitant to use the Part C because ICP tests are indicating fairly normal Na and Cl levels. Since the 3 parts are intended to be dosed equally, is it safe to use the Part C when Na and Cl are "normal" to start with?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have the T.M. Balling system but am hesitant to use the Part C because ICP tests are indicating fairly normal Na and Cl levels. Since the 3 parts are intended to be dosed equally, is it safe to use the Part C when Na and Cl are "normal" to start with?

Generally, you are not trying to lower those, but to raise things like potassium, sulfate, magnesium, etc. Sure, those things are related at fixed salinity, but Na and Cl together are such a big fraction of ions in seawater, that they will only rise a small amount even when the other things are getting depleted.

I personally would err on the side of using it vs not using it even if NaCl seemed fine.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I agree with Randy Holmes-Farley 100%. That is basically the answer I would have given. Thanks RHF.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Generally, you are not trying to lower those, but to raise things like potassium, sulfate, magnesium, etc. Sure, those things are related at fixed salinity, but Na and Cl together are such a big fraction of ions in seawater, that they will only rise a small amount even when the other things are getting depleted.

I personally would err on the side of using it vs not using it even if NaCl seemed fine.

I thought that over time Na and Cl accumulate, so by adding more salt that excludes Na and Cl, that will bring everything except NaCl back up to balance (but more concentrated) so when diluted everything is in balance. So, if that is correct, then if all salts are in balance to start with and we add Part C, wouldn’t all the salts other than NaCl end up higher and out of balance once the solution is diluted?

 

[Lou Ekus]

I thought that over time Na and Cl accumulate, so by adding more salt that excludes Na and Cl, that will bring everything except NaCl back up to balance (but more concentrated) so when diluted everything is in balance. So, if that is correct, then if all salts are in balance to start with and we add Part C, wouldn’t all the salts other than NaCl end up higher and out of balance once the solution is diluted?

That would be totally correct if we allowed the specific gravity to increase with the NaCl increase. But since we ad the fresh water to dilute the entire solution, the NaCl returns to "almost" normal levels while everything else gets depleted. Because there is so much NaCL in the solution, a very small, almost indistinguishable increase in the NaCl corresponds to a massive decrease in the trace elements that are in such minute concentrations.

This is, of course, not a 1 to 1, exact relationship. But "in principle" plays out as a very difficult thing to measure from the NaCl side.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I thought that over time Na and Cl accumulate, so by adding more salt that excludes Na and Cl, that will bring everything except NaCl back up to balance (but more concentrated) so when diluted everything is in balance. So, if that is correct, then if all salts are in balance to start with and we add Part C, wouldn’t all the salts other than NaCl end up higher and out of balance once the solution is diluted?

My point is that measuring sodium and chloride is not a suitable way to determine that everything else is in balance.

Sodium and chloride together account for 86.3% of what is in seawater. If those two alone rose by only 1% (which you cannot see reliably by ICP since you are unlikely to even measure salinity that accurately, even if the ICP values were perfect (and they definitely are not)), everything else would have to fall by 7% to maintain 35 ppt.

That is why it is not useful to claim everything is correct if Na and Cl are OK.

That said, if you measured everything else and also determined all were OK, then you might reconsider adding it, but any given addition has only a tiny effect, so by the time enough additions have passed that you are making a significant boost to everything, the "perfectness" of the salt solution will have changed.

 

[LadyTang2]

That would be totally correct if we allowed the specific gravity to increase with the NaCl increase. But since we ad the fresh water to dilute the entire solution, the NaCl returns to "almost" normal levels while everything else gets depleted. Because there is so much NaCL in the solution, a very small, almost indistinguishable increase in the NaCl corresponds to a massive decrease in the trace elements that are in such minute concentrations.

This is, of course, not a 1 to 1, exact relationship. But "in principle" plays out as a very difficult thing to measure from the NaCl side.

If I does equal parts balling A B and C to keep alk at 8.5, I cannot overdose trace or mag right? And this gives me all 70 trace right?

 

[Dr. Jim]

If I does equal parts balling A B and C to keep alk at 8.5, I cannot overdose trace or mag right? And this gives me all 70 trace right?

No, because T.M. Balling doesn't include the trace elements (unlike others, like ESV or Triton, for example). I don't like the ones that include the trace elements because you have to be careful and make sure you dose the Parts equally (because there are trace elements in the Ca AND Alk components which will be thrown out of balance if the parts aren't dosed equally). I find that rarely, when using any 2-Part, will dosing the two parts give you the perfect Ca level and Alk level that you want so you always end up with other solutions (usually a buffer) to fine tune your levels when using a system that has the trace elements mixed in (because you are forced to dose them equally). If you use a 2-Part with no added trace elements, then you can just dose them unequally if necessary to get the levels you want.

So, of course you need to dose with trace elements separately if you are using a 2-Part (or 3-Part) that does not include trace elements. If you want to stick with T.M., then you would use the A-Elements and K-Elements. (I dose 1/4 of the recommended dosage on my SPS frag tank). (Some people mix the K-Elements and A-Elements in with the Part A (Ca) and Part B (Alk) components, respectively, but then you are creating a situation like the Triton or ESV. So, IMO, it is better to dose the trace elements separately. You can also control the amount of trace elements you are adding by dosing separately (e.g. full dose for heavily stocked tank; 1/4 dose for new tank; etc).

If using T.M. balling and you aren't dosing equal amounts of Part A and Part B then I would suggest dosing Part C equal to whichever is the lower volume (of Part A or Part B). (I dose less of Part A than Part B so Part A's dosage equals Part C's dosage).

 

[LadyTang2]

No, because T.M. Balling doesn't include the trace elements (unlike others, like ESV or Triton, for example).

• Original Balling Component Part C - Trace Elements

That's from them, part C is part of balling, and it does contain trace.

I think the answer to my question is no because I am adding but not supplementing but I am not 100% on that so I want to confirm that and ask if all 70 trace are in there

 

[Dr. Jim]

• Original Balling Component Part C - Trace Elements

That's from them, part C is part of balling, and it does contain trace.

I think the answer to my question is no because I am adding but not supplementing but I am not 100% on that so I want to confirm that and ask if all 70 trace are in there

No, don't think of Part C as a "trace elements supplement." It only has enough trace elements to balance what is in the Part C; not enough to supply the additional trace elements being "used up" by organisms (corals, etc).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

• Original Balling Component Part C - Trace Elements

That's from them, part C is part of balling, and it does contain trace.

I think the answer to my question is no because I am adding but not supplementing but I am not 100% on that so I want to confirm that and ask if all 70 trace are in there

As Jim correctly points out, Part C is not actually increasing trace elements and should not be considered a trace element supplement. What is does it keep all 70 elements from being forced down every time you correct for the salinity rise caused by the addition of sodium (from sodium carbonate) and chloride (from calcium chloride).

It does not offset consumption of elements by organisms.