Anyone using Dr. Sochting's Oxydator

[Lasse]

couldnt find it but is there actually any effect of using an oxydator on overall aerobic or anaerobic bacteria colonization levels? @atoll maybe you might know

According to oxygen - there is some different types of bacteria - shortly three types - obligate aerobic bacteria (it needs oxygen to live), faculitative aerobic/anaerobic bacteria (they can live both with oxygen and the lack of it) and obligate anaerobic bacteria (they can´t live in the present of oxygen)

An oxidator will rise the overall oxygen tension in an aquarium - therefore it will increase the amount of oxygen rich niches in the aquarium, hence favour obligate and faculitative aerobic bacteria to the detriment of obligate anaerobic bacteria.

It means that it will change the total environment in the aquarium to a more aerobic condition - more niches for obligate and faculitative aerobic bacteria - lesser niches for obligate anaerobic bacteria.

This is the overall difference between having an oxidator or not - IMO. The second effect of an oxidator - creation of active oxygen radicals that can kill bacteria and other living things may not differ between the different environmental bacteria groups - the active oxygen radicals will try to oxidize them all - the outcome of this depends on the amount of antioxidants that the various organisms have and can use as a defense tool.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[dedragon]

Thats what I was worried about a bit lasse. Right now i am testing how the specific two species present in pns pro bio in conjunction with substrate sauce specifically to see if these anaerobic bacteria can help lower the levels of bacteria that create soo much mulm build up in my tank. I am using substrate sauce (Rhodopseudomonas and Rhodospirillum) in seachem matrix medium, while slightly dosing substrate sauce (dont want to increase phosphate and this had phosphate in it) and pns pro bio (only one bacteria but no phosphate). This is gonna be in a bag placed deep in the bottom of an overflow where it gets very low flow.
If oxydation is more indiscriminate or even killing off mostly anaerobic bacteria (most likely) I may be able to dose this using actual bio media soaked in it, in a low flow area to change the overall bacterial composition in the tank (may be dangerous, may be helpful who knows). I will ask Hydrospace owner (Ken) and see what he thinks as well.

 

[dedragon]

Right now I have only noticed slightly brighter colors in some corals but this could be the oxydator as well, hard to say, started using the oxydator about the same time

 

[MnFish1]

Thats what I was worried about a bit lasse. Right now i am testing how the specific two species present in pns pro bio in conjunction with substrate sauce specifically to see if these anaerobic bacteria can help lower the levels of bacteria that create soo much mulm build up in my tank. I am using substrate sauce (Rhodopseudomonas and Rhodospirillum) in seachem matrix medium, while slightly dosing substrate sauce (dont want to increase phosphate and this had phosphate in it) and pns pro bio (only one bacteria but no phosphate). This is gonna be in a bag placed deep in the bottom of an overflow where it gets very low flow.
If oxydation is more indiscriminate or even killing off mostly anaerobic bacteria (most likely) I may be able to dose this using actual bio media soaked in it, in a low flow area to change the overall bacterial composition in the tank (may be dangerous, may be helpful who knows). I will ask Hydrospace owner (Ken) and see what he thinks as well.

Let us know - I assume you're talking to @AquaBiomics. I think you might be overthinking a problem. There is a difference between 'Oxygenation' and 'toxic oxygen radicals'. The latter will kill most, not all, bacteria on contact some bacteria have enzymes that are protective. Oxygenation will favor aerobic bacteria. BUT I'm not sure it will have a big (if any) effect on anaerobes - which are growing mostly in areas that are anaerobic (i.e. that don't let oxygen in). I suppose one could suggest that a slightly higher oxygen level in a tank means that more oxygenated water can get into these 'anaerobic' areas. But, I doubt its significant. Certainly not enough to raise or change phosphate.

 

[dedragon]

The phosphate is due to substrate sauce originally being a cycling product, but PNS pro bio doesnt have any phosphate nor the second strain of bacteria as when it first came out they had not full cultured the second strain of bacteria used in substrate sauce. They probably didnt change pro bio because of positive feedback and not wanting to deter older clients, but i do think they may consider a pns pro bio 2 in the future with both in it and no phosphates. This way they could have the original with 1 strain and pro bio 2 with now 2 strains in it but i may actually be the guinea pig for this with my diy method

 

[atoll]

Obviously lost me @dedragon @ MnFish1.
Am a simple retired carpenter and building projects manager.

Not sure if its relevant or not but here goes.
I have used alcohol fueled denitrators that the Oxydator appears to have no I'll affects on. My friend has used sulphur reactors and again using Oxydators appeared to have no I'll affects.
When I first started using Oxydators about 30 years ago I also built my own denitrator using methanol as the fuel again with no apparent negative affect by the Oxydators. All the above work well at reducing nitrate to free nitrogen gas.

 

[dedragon]

I heard back from him, "Some bacteria (particularly obligate anaerobes) might be adversely affected by elevated DO levels. But I don't see this as much of an issue, so long as there is very little or no residual peroxide (that would be pretty bad, to both aerobes and anaerobes). PNSB in general and Rhodopseudomonas in particular are highly tolerant of (and even reproduce in) aerobic conditions. We however tend not to see many PNSB in aerobic environments due to their loss of several competitive advantages there (they are incapable performing diazotrophy, denitrification and photosynthesis in the presence of oxygen). I can see where this sort of peroxide treatment would be potentially less harmful to anaerobic microbial communities in mature systems for the reason that their more highly developed biofilms effectively shield them from O2/H2O2 intrusion. If one wished to act with utmost caution, they might direct the oxydator effluent downstream from their biofiltration media."- Ken's words
Hope he doesnt care that I cited him here but he is way smarter than me, lol

 

[dedragon]

So it appears we are good with pns dosing and oxydators ;). I will start substrate sauce and let you know if it speeds up the rate that bacterial mulm seems to be dissapearing (right now going awayVERY slowly) again anecdotal evidence at best but I believe in bacteria!

 

[MnFish1]

So it appears we are good with pns dosing and oxydators ;). I will start substrate sauce and let you know if it speeds up the rate that bacterial mulm seems to be dissapearing (right now going awayVERY slowly) again anecdotal evidence at best but I believe in bacteria!

Suggestion - start another thread - with your experiment. ? What your expert said was what I was trying to say - and @atoll as well.

Edit - PS - if you don't have a control tank with 'mulm' in it - and no bacteria - how will you know its not something else reducing it?

 

[atoll]

I heard back from him, "Some bacteria (particularly obligate anaerobes) might be adversely affected by elevated DO levels. But I don't see this as much of an issue, so long as there is very little or no residual peroxide (that would be pretty bad, to both aerobes and anaerobes). PNSB in general and Rhodopseudomonas in particular are highly tolerant of (and even reproduce in) aerobic conditions. We however tend not to see many PNSB in aerobic environments due to their loss of several competitive advantages there (they are incapable performing diazotrophy, denitrification and photosynthesis in the presence of oxygen). I can see where this sort of peroxide treatment would be potentially less harmful to anaerobic microbial communities in mature systems for the reason that their more highly developed biofilms effectively shield them from O2/H2O2 intrusion. If one wished to act with utmost caution, they might direct the oxydator effluent downstream from their biofiltration media."- Ken's words
Hope he doesnt care that I cited him here but he is way smarter than me, lol

I have always recommended that the Oxydator if positioned in the sump is placed as close to the return pump as possible and in the same sump chamber so as not to interfere with any bio medium in the sump, just as a precaution.

 

[atoll]

Suggestion - start another thread - with your experiment. ? What your expert said was what I was trying to say - and @atoll as well.

Edit - PS - if you don't have a control tank with 'mulm' in it - and no bacteria - how will you know its not something else reducing it?

Schotting do say in their Oxydator literature that the Oxydator does reduce mulm build up.but IME will not eliminate it which is to be expected I guess. I don't use any prefiltration at all unless you wish to call a skimmer prefiltration. I get little detritus etc in my sump but I do get it in my sand substrate which I believe is not a problem.

 

[dedragon]

I have always recommended that the Oxydator if positioned in the sump is placed as close to the return pump as possible and in the same sump chamber so as not to interfere with any bio medium in the sump, just as a precaution.

yep that is how i set it up with my pns substrate in my giant old overflow box so it should be okay

 

[dedragon]

Suggestion - start another thread - with your experiment. ? What your expert said was what I was trying to say - and @atoll as well.

Edit - PS - if you don't have a control tank with 'mulm' in it - and no bacteria - how will you know its not something else reducing it?

totally why i said anecdotal at best before, i dont have enough time/ money to do that over a couple of months with multiple tanks just experimenting on my own

 

[MnFish1]

totally why i said anecdotal at best before, i dont have enough time/ money to do that over a couple of months with multiple tanks just experimenting on my own

I hear you - I'm doing my nitrifying bacteria experiment - its a hassle:). But interesting

 

[Midrats]

Obviously lost me @dedragon @ MnFish1.
Am a simple retired carpenter and building projects manager.

Not sure if its relevant or not but here goes.
I have used alcohol fueled denitrators that the Oxydator appears to have no I'll affects on. My friend has used sulphur reactors and again using Oxydators appeared to have no I'll affects.
When I first started using Oxydators about 30 years ago I also built my own denitrator using methanol as the fuel again with no apparent negative affect by the Oxydators. All the above work well at reducing nitrate to free nitrogen gas.

Carpentry is way harder than biology ;)

 

[atoll]

Carpentry is way harder than biology ;)

And you can.never be allowed to retire.

 

[dedragon]

More info on this from ken though, he is currently developing a 2 strain formula for retail sale hopefully in the next couple of months, even some word of a possible third strain of PNSB that they are experimenting with as well.

 

[dedragon]

That is all I will mention about that though it was more of a discussion of effects of oxydator on bacteria which kind of fits here

 

[MnFish1]

Carpentry is way harder than biology ;)

THIS IS TRUE. coming from both sides of the equation:)

 

[MnFish1]

That is all I will mention about that though it was more of a discussion of effects of oxydator on bacteria which kind of fits here

No You're misunderstanding. I think you should start a thread - with your tank - Its great information - and everyone wants to hear about it (or almost everyone) - I think it deserves its own thread. If you want to keep it here - Its not like I'm the Rulemaker - I only suggested it to get more interest from the broader community:)

EDIT - I'm really sorry If I implied that you shouldn't post it here. I really think your tank deserves its own thread - thats a compliment - not a criticism. I would suggest - frequent posts, pictures, etc - I'm very interested in whether this product helps - which is independent of the oxydator