BRS160 Update 4: Triton Method, here we come! | BRStv

[LobsterOfJustice]

I don't like the term "chasing numbers" because the first thing we ask for when something is wrong is a for a full list of tank parameters. I wouldn't wait until I look sick to take a multi vitamin. It seems to me that if it is worth testing for, it is worth correcting even if you don't see any immediate effect of the bad numbers. If your numbers don't match nsw and nothing looks wrong, I wouldn't say it is a bad thing to go ahead and adjust the numbers anyway. It prevents something that looks like just numbers today from becoming a real world problem tomorrow. So I really don't see "number chasing" as an undesirable behavior as some people try and make it seem. Just don't kill your animals just to obtain a number.

But the assumption is that all of these parameters matter, and that there are forces at work pushing these parameters towards undesirable levels (wether too high or low). And even if that's the case, I still don't see how sending out a test several times a year and then specifically supplementing each of these elements to "correct" values which may or may not matter is easier than just changing some water every once in a while...

I guess my issue is, I don't see the problem that we are trying to solve. Everyone has their "reef idols", whose tanks they are trying to emulate... as far as I know, none of the tanks I drool over are individually testing and supplementing cobalt, nickel, vanadium, boron, chromium, sulphate, bromine, etc. Individually testing and supplementing each of these can't possibly be simpler or cheaper and certainly doesn't have the proven track record compared to just changing out some water?

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

If people are having issues with their corals, I'd rather them spend their time looking at their flow, lighting, or alkalinity than wasting time worrying about their vanadium levels. You won't find experienced people with awesome tanks worrying about stuff like that. I do see a use for this system to take already successful tanks "to the next level" when used by experienced reefers, but unfortunately it seems like a bandwagon that people with 0-2 years in the hobby are jumping on.

 

[Ryanbrs]

It pains me to see a successful tank switching away from a method that produced results for experimental reasons, but I understand why you guys are doing it. My advice for everyone's personal tanks however, is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

I just don't understand the obsession people have with reducing or eliminating water changes. It would be one thing if there was a simple solution - but installing extra tanks and plumbing (i.e. 20% fuge), more high powered lighting, expensive versions of basic 2-part supplements, paying for lab grade testing, then more supplements to correct those imbalances uncovered... I mean come on people, is this really easier than just changing 10% of your frickin' water once a month? My strategy, which has been "perfected" over the last few setups, is just to make water changes super easy. I have a 55g barrel plumbed into the system (these were readily available to me and I have the space, but certainly could use something smaller depending on the system). The barrel circulates system water through it (tee'd off return, similar to how an external fuge or frag tank would be plumbed) and when it's time to do a water change, I shut a ball valve on the inlet to isolate the barrel, open a ball valve on the bottom to drain the barrel, and then turn on the RODI to refill the barrel (float switch will shut off when full). Dump a bag of salt in, wait a few days, and then open the ball valve and the barrel is now once again circulating with the rest of the system. This is an extreme example of a significant infrastructure investment (although no more than a typical 20% system volume refugium...) up front to have almost zero headache/tasks during actual maintenance. You could certainly make water changes easier in other ways, like having a dedicated tee off your return pump which you can attach hose to for pumping water to drain, and/or simply placing your saltwater prep container above the sump so that once water is removed, you can open a ball valve and let gravity refill instead of lugging buckets...

As for the removal of the rollermat - is the idea here that the zeovit system fed the corals, so now you are hoping the additional detritus in the system will fill that gap? Is "no mechanical filtration" recommended for the Triton system? Although corals likely eat detritus if made available to them in the water column, I don't think it's a simple swap of removing your mechanical filtration to provide the same food type/quantity that zeovit did. Bacteria are orders of magnitude smaller than detritus particles. And the idea of draining a tank directly into a refugium makes me squirm - that sexy clean sump is going to have piles of detritus all over it.

I also understand the urge to use the Kessil H1200, but I worry that if the point of this experiment is to show results of using a refugium and Triton in a realistic hobbyist environment, this will always be an asterisk next to your results that you have to defend. Yeah it was successful, but you used a ridiculously overpowered crucial piece of equipment that now makes this system an outlier, not a typical approximation. (Side note - seriously, have you guys sold any H1200s? lol).

I agree stability is king and we do our best to drive that home. If it is working, don't mess with success. However, our educational series really requires us to explore different methods and topics. I certainly hope it is helpful to not just talk about this stuff and regurgitate what the manufacturers tell us but to also demonstrate the results.

I have personally become pretty interested in water changes roll in reefing. Mostly because when we internally debate methods like Triton I have to ask why am I doing these water changes anyways. With many of today's common approches to reefing they certainly seem to be less critical. The only reason seems to be general unidentifiable contaminants. Nitrate and phosphate just aren't an issue today, odors and yellowing pigments can be handled with 2 bucks in carbon and there are a variety of easy ways to manage trace elements. So I think it is reasonable to question if "general unidentifiable contaminants" is a good enough reason to buy, mix and store saltwater.

Water changes might be critical but why not explore other options and learn something?

We removed the rollermat because Trition recommends not using filter socks. Not that it is a replacement for anything, just a component of an overall approach. I personally think the fairly large fuge and network of cheato is going to capture most of the waste particles.

For what it is worth, we turned the H1200 down to its lowest setting. I get your point and we debated that here but end of the day this is a hobby and using oversize gear is fun sometimes : )

 

[Ryanbrs]

I don't like the term "chasing numbers" because the first thing we ask for when something is wrong is a for a full list of tank parameters. I wouldn't wait until I look sick to take a multi vitamin. It seems to me that if it is worth testing for, it is worth correcting even if you don't see any immediate effect of the bad numbers. If your numbers don't match nsw and nothing looks wrong, I wouldn't say it is a bad thing to go ahead and adjust the numbers anyway. It prevents something that looks like just numbers today from becoming a real world problem tomorrow. So I really don't see "number chasing" as an undesirable behavior as some people try and make it seem. Just don't kill your animals just to obtain a number.

There does seem to be a balance here between chasing numbers and looking for signs of general health. Certainly, dont like the concept of chasing numbers but I also have to say that a coral visually looking unhealthy is one of the last signs of mortality and nothing to do with general health. The average reefers ability to identify subtle signs of decreased health is somewhat limited.

 

[JamesP]

I'm considering switching to the core7 as a more complete 2 part solution that also supplies trace elements and elevated iron for my fuge. I don't see myself ever getting away from vacuuming my sand monthly so I'll be doing a 10% monthly no matter what as a side effect of vacuuming sand. I'm thinking maybe i can stop my 1% daily continuous water change if i use a more complete 2 part like core7. I did the math and I actually stand to save money vs doing a 1% daily and supplementing brightwell iron if I switch to core7. The 1% daily was for trace replenishment.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

I agree stability is king and we do our best to drive that home. If it is working, don't mess with success. However, our educational series really requires us to explore different methods and topics. I certainly hope it is helpful to not just talk about this stuff and regurgitate what the manufacturers tell us but to also demonstrate the results.

Yep, I totally get it.

For what it is worth, we turned the H1200 down to its lowest setting. I get your point and we debated that here but end of the day this is a hobby and using oversize gear is fun sometimes : )

Agreed

Oh, and you'll have to pry my rollermat out of my cold, dead hands.

 

[JamesP]

Yeah the roller mat isn't coming out of my build either. It's ridiculously awesome.

I remember the brs160 episode where the roller mat was put in and Ryan said he was never doing another build without one. Must be painful pulling it out now in the name of science.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

Yeah the roller mat isn't coming out of my build either. It's ridiculously awesome.

I remember the brs160 episode where the roller mat was put in and Ryan said he was never doing another build without one. Must be painful pulling it out now in the name of science.

I imagine that's why they used the H1200 lol. "Alright, fine, we can take the rollermat out, but you have to let me play with this $1200 fuge light..."

 

[JamesP]

I can understand if the fuge was external and had a really large surface area hanging the light higher up to cover it would mean you need a stronger light. Like one of those big black tubs. For an in sump fuge the h380 is perfect.

 

[jasonamyers]

I'm glad they are showing all of us newer reefers all these systems. I got lucky that 52 weeks of reefing kicked off right when I started my first tank. One of the things I learned from them doing zeofit was to appreciate the little moments spent with the tank each day. I never went zeofit just because they did, because like many others I read this forum and learned that I shouldn't go to a complex system so quickly. There are always gonna be people trying to rush things, but I don't BRS research videos are a leading cause of that.
I'm fascinated with triton because I like the health check of the testing, but I've been doing their tests while using the Red Sea reef care program which is a super simple system/2part. I won't really change that until I have a chance to see the results from other people. I got super fascinated with Aqua forest, but ultimately experiences of people on here with their salts drove me away.
I would have never done the reading or thinking with out BRS basically constantly reminding me to think out my ideas throughly before applying them.
So I loved the remorse that Ryan seemed to be portraying while talking initially about the change, but I'm thankful they are will to prove out things and share so much with us.

 

[JamesP]

I was trying the red sea method and though I still use the blue bucket salt and their calcium and magnesium test kits, I dropped everything else. Once you start using reef energy, which needs to be refrigerated, and coral colors ,which has the most ridiculous test kits, the simple 2 part red sea method becomes 8 part with an hour or more of testing each week with fish stuff in my fridge. Triton supplements actually sound easier since the trace and major elements are all in 4 bottles and they are all based around 1 test, alkalinity, which you then dose the same amount of each bottle daily. With Hanna all checker, it's a 60 second test. I gotta say, it sounds appealing and actually works out to be cheaper. I'm not sold on the ICP testing, but from a major and trace element perspective this is a game changer for me. And it has the elevated iron for my fuge; win win.

 

[HeadStrongGrafx]

I like the triton method but have switched to REEFGROW and having MUCH better results!!!

 

[jasonamyers]

I was trying the red sea method and though I still use the blue bucket salt and their calcium and magnesium test kits, I dropped everything else. Once you start using reef energy, which needs to be refrigerated, and coral colors ,which has the most ridiculous test kits, the simple 2 part red sea method becomes 8 part with an hour or more of testing each week with fish stuff in my fridge. Triton supplements actually sound easier since the trace and major elements are all in 4 bottles and they are all based around 1 test, alkalinity, which you then dose the same amount of each bottle daily. With Hanna all checker, it's a 60 second test. I gotta say, it sounds appealing and actually works out to be cheaper. I'm not sold on the ICP testing, but from a major and trace element perspective this is a game changer for me. And it has the elevated iron for my fuge; win win.

I'm with you on the coloration test kits and dosing so very confusing.

 

[Ryanbrs]

Something I like about the Zeovit system as opposed to Triton is the focus on the corals instead of the numbers and testing. Zeovit has a bunch of additives but the way you're supposed to know what to add is by observing your tank, seeing what is lacking, and making a decision based on actual things that are happening. I worry that the Triton system promotes "chasing numbers" - i.e. adding supplements or other additives just because the results show something is "wrong" - but the tank is otherwise fine. I really think this system is over-complicating things for people just getting into the hobby.

I think this is just a mentality or approach that will be different between each reefer. This is how I would sum up the two.

Zeovit - Solid method but includes a wide variety of mystery elixir type products and it is not clear what is in all of them. There is a lot of trust here that whatever is in the bottles is both valuable to the tank and won't cause harm. Even though I don't know how every last aspect works nor am I testing for many things the system produced solid results for me and has earned my trust.

Triton - Match natural seawater parameters to the best of our ability. Requires some additional testing and dosing of every specific elements to achieve that. There is not a lot of mystery here because the basis for the system of emulating natural seawater matches common sence and is very direct about the approach. I have not run a triton tank for any period of time so while the approach seems plausible it hasn't earned my trust yet.

 

[Reefing-Around]

You'll be happy. And happy not to have to remember which blue bottles on which day. Promise.

I seriously wanter the basement with nothing to screw with. You can only dump the skimmer cup so many times in a week.

Will be interesting to see what is required to add daily, weekly, and monthly once the lab tests are returned. There are quites a few "blue bottles" with Zeo but seems to be a equal amount of options with the Triton line of products. We will have to wait and see what recommendations are made to keep the system healthy.

 

[Scott.h]

I think this is just a mentality or approach that will be different between each reefer. This is how I would sum up the two.

Zeovit - Solid method but includes a wide variety of mystery elixir type products and it is not clear what is in all of them. There is a lot of trust here that whatever is in the bottles is both valuable to the tank and won't cause harm. Even though I don't know how every last aspect works nor am I testing for many things the system produced solid results for me and has earned my trust.

Triton - Match natural seawater parameters to the best of our ability. Requires some additional testing and dosing of every specific elements to achieve that. There is not a lot of mystery here because the basis for the system of emulating natural seawater matches common sence and is very direct about the approach. I have not run a triton tank for any period of time so while the approach seems plausible it hasn't earned my trust yet.

You'll figure it out over time, but IMO there is no shame in running the roller mat with the system. IMO the system still needs a little bit of "out of the box thinking". Depending on how much daily dosing you're doing with the elements (I suspect a lot) you don't have control over the elements for the macro that you are also adding. You obviously wasn't having problems growing chaeto without the system. Also you feed the tank pretty heavy. I personally have never had a problem growing macro, even in a low nutrient environment. At times I feel like my display is trying to turn into a without socks. My fuge is 17% of my display volume and I have to add P and N daily, but for some reason having socks keep the nucense stuff down in the display, despite the numbers being in check - .75/.010. The socks have no bearing on how well my fuge is doing. I've tried both ways. I realize you are doing the system 100% as am I, but just thought I'd throw that out there. If nucense pics up in the display, no shame in running the mat.

 

[Scott.h]

Im surprised at the amount of negitivity being said on the topic. People fear what they don't know. And will justify what they do know because of it. There are more then one way to do things, triton being one of them, but not the only way. At the end of the day, trying something new and learning because of it pushes the hobby further. If it doesn't work long term, lucky for the haters, you'll be able to learn from others mistakes free of charge!

 

[Monkeynaut]

How long did you let the plumbing dry before starting the system back up?

 

[Ryanbrs]

How long did you let the plumbing dry before starting the system back up?

Not sure what they did that day but I just don't want any chemicals in the tank so I always give it the 24 hours.

 

[Monkeynaut]

What did you actually get flow set at for the tank? I assume it is around a 120 gallon display volume?
Were you able to get 10 percent display volume water flow through the sump?