Corals Utilizing Nitrates?

[Palytoxin]

It seems that the general consensus is that coral's zooxanthellae utilize nitrates for coral growth, coloring, etc. But on average, is there some sort of chart or general knowledge about how many nitrates corals can pull from the water in a given amount of time? For instance, One Polyp of Zoanthid will remove approximately 1ppm Nitrate per month. I know that is a huge overestimation there by a lot. But it is just an example!

Thank you in advance!!

 

[kenchilada]

This is by @jda and might help wrap your head around what's going on...

N & P

docs.google.com

 

[jda]

If that is the general consensus, it is wrong...

This is totally general, but most microalgae cannot use nitrate directly, but instead get their nitrogen from ammonia or ammonium, aminos or assimilating bacteria through their slime coat. Some hosts can convert nitrate for microalgae to use, but it costs them energy sometimes in the range of 30-60%... not great for the coral. Some hosts can recycle nitrogen of dead/decaying/releasing symbionts to be reused meaning that you only need new nitrogen for growth and not so much maintenance (this is not 100% true in all cases, but let's go with it to keep it simple).

Macroalgae can use nitrate directly. Chaeto, hair, etc. Most can also use ammonia/ammonium.

Both can also get nitrogen from amino acids and/or bacteria if they can catch and assimilate them - the ability to do this depends from coral to coral and algae to algae. Anything with a slime coat can do it if they can catch, but the lose a math game with so little surface area compared to the rest of the tank, especially while small. This is not known to be effective in captivity as it is in the ocean where bacteria levels are 50x and even amino supplements are often incomplete if they even list what aminos you are adding (not all of them are the same).

Microalgae that ammonia/ammonium can reduce nitrate on the back end since this does not enter the nitrogen cycle any further. However, I doubt that they are good source for doing so.

The best way to control or remove nitrate is with anoxic bacteria that use the oxygen in the no3 and turn it into nitrogen gas. Once you understand that corals don't really use nitrate, you see that the corals get from the front end and then bacteria can use the back end and grow to equilibrium. Deeper places in the sand and established rock (not so much dry/dead rock, at least for a few years) are very good at this. These places with no oxygen can get the nitrate down to levels that you need ICP to test at about .1 or .2. This is the last step in the nitrogen cycle that most people do not even know exist.

 

[Biologic]

If that is the general consensus, it is wrong...

This is totally general, but most microalgae cannot use nitrate directly, but instead get their nitrogen from ammonia or ammonium, aminos or assimilating bacteria through their slime coat. Some hosts can convert nitrate for microalgae to use, but it costs them energy sometimes in the range of 30-60%... not great for the coral. Some hosts can recycle nitrogen of dead/decaying/releasing symbionts to be reused meaning that you only need new nitrogen for growth and not so much maintenance (this is not 100% true in all cases, but let's go with it to keep it simple).

Macroalgae can use nitrate directly. Chaeto, hair, etc. Most can also use ammonia/ammonium.

Both can also get nitrogen from amino acids and/or bacteria if they can catch and assimilate them - the ability to do this depends from coral to coral and algae to algae. Anything with a slime coat can do it if they can catch, but the lose a math game with so little surface area compared to the rest of the tank, especially while small. This is not known to be effective in captivity as it is in the ocean where bacteria levels are 50x and even amino supplements are often incomplete if they even list what aminos you are adding (not all of them are the same).

Microalgae that ammonia/ammonium can reduce nitrate on the back end since this does not enter the nitrogen cycle any further. However, I doubt that they are good source for doing so.

The best way to control or remove nitrate is with anoxic bacteria that use the oxygen in the no3 and turn it into nitrogen gas. Once you understand that corals don't really use nitrate, you see that the corals get from the front end and then bacteria can use the back end and grow to equilibrium. Deeper places in the sand and established rock (not so much dry/dead rock, at least for a few years) are very good at this. These places with no oxygen can get the nitrate down to levels that you need ICP to test at about .1 or .2. This is the last step in the nitrogen cycle that most people do not even know exist.

I’ve read your current thoughts on N and P. I am using Hanna LR Phosphorus (ppb) and Hanna LR Nitrate to track. I am dabbling in ZeoVit. I’ve read your method on ZeoVit and you are not using the Zeolites.

Zeolites remove ammonia from the water. Seeing how you’ve read papers that established the corals and symbiotic organisms that life within, can uptake these more efficiently.

Should I continue to use Zeolites? Is the real key to success is the carbon dosing
Zeovit employs?

Also, your views on feeding corals directly makes sense to me. However, could I suggest that feeding products life Reefroids is just feeding ammonia into the tank through it just rotting?

When trying to hit 3 ppb Phosphorus, I find I break out in dinoflagellates. Any advice?

Sorry lots of questions!

 

[jda]

I don't use ZeoVit, so I do not use Zeolites either. I have always thought that the real success that Zeo employs is the fine tuned nature of paying attention that people who spend all of that money have. They also import a bunch and export a bunch. In the olden days, people who did not were ones who were already good reefers looking for another level, and they got there, but mostly from a refocused approach and probably less on the actual method. IMO, any method of high import and high export with lower residuals will work. Normally, I am a fan of going in 100% if you want to use a method instead of picking and choosing this or that.

If you assume that whatever happens to the reef roids ends up as ammonia, then sure, that can be true. Depending on what get them, this may, or may not, happen. Not all of the consumers in our tank will create ammonia as a byproduct.

Dinos have been more of a recent phenonomen with tanks started with sterile rock and sand. My tanks are not like that I don't have to keep N or P high to poison them. Others that I trust say that time and diversity is all that you can do. All that I know is that every tank has dinos and cyano - I have some come and go in small patches and they come on their own and disappear on their own. I am not a pro at Dinos, but I don't know who is because there is like a 100 page thread on here and most of their assumptions are wrong about why what they are doing is working. I do know that killing them with chemicals is a bad idea - zoox in the coral are actually dinos too.

 

[Biologic]

I don't use ZeoVit, so I do not use Zeolites either. I have always thought that the real success that Zeo employs is the fine tuned nature of paying attention that people who spend all of that money have. They also import a bunch and export a bunch. In the olden days, people who did not were ones who were already good reefers looking for another level, and they got there, but mostly from a refocused approach and probably less on the actual method. IMO, any method of high import and high export with lower residuals will work. Normally, I am a fan of going in 100% if you want to use a method instead of picking and choosing this or that.

If you assume that whatever happens to the reef roids ends up as ammonia, then sure, that can be true. Depending on what get them, this may, or may not, happen. Not all of the consumers in our tank will create ammonia as a byproduct.

Dinos have been more of a recent phenonomen with tanks started with sterile rock and sand. My tanks are not like that I don't have to keep N or P high to poison them. Others that I trust say that time and diversity is all that you can do. All that I know is that every tank has dinos and cyano - I have some come and go in small patches and they come on their own and disappear on their own. I am not a pro at Dinos, but I don't know who is because there is like a 100 page thread on here and most of their assumptions are wrong about why what they are doing is working. I do know that killing them with chemicals is a bad idea - zoox in the coral are actually dinos too.

Oh forgive me, maybe I confused you with another member here that uses Zeovit.

I am actually using "Real Reef" brand man made, that is very well established, which is a bit different than some of the dry rock sterile builds.

Oh yeah, don't disagree with the poisons. I think the key to beating dinos, which I've beat two times was through lowering lights, blacking out for a couple of days, hammering it with bio-diversity, adding pods, adding phytoplankton, adding sand from other "good tanks", bacterial supplements, no water changes, don't clean the glass, and elevating phosphates and nitrates temporarily. I do have the occasional patch here and there, when phosphorus drop too low in the 2 ppb range. I can fix it by manually dosing PO4 and NO3 to balance out. That's far more natural approach.

With regards to a N to P ratio, I tried searching for more information of you speaking about this. Since NO3 isn't as crucial to the SPS, really it seems to be PO4. Do you make a suggestion on a ratio? Such as 0.03 PPM PO4 and 0.1 PPM NO3?

 

[jda]

I don't think that residual levels matter much at all. What drives the bus is availability.

I don't add or worry about P. If you add some, it will just bind to the aragonite anyway, or at least what is not covered with purple epoxy if Real Reef Rock is the same as it used to be (or sand). Your test kit is one kind and there are many different kinds that get used by different stuff... organic/inorganic/phosphate/phosphorous.

My N stays around .1, which I need IC test to tell. It is clear on Salifert. I get 1-3 PPB on a Hannah and occasionally I get to 5 or 6 when my chaeto ball gets large and needs trimmed so it will grow again, but the N drops again. I have no opinion if this is ideal, or not, since it all depends on your availability. If your N and P are low because you quit feeding, used chemicals or media, then this can be bad. If they are at these levels also with high import, then stuff can thrive. If you use chemicals and media and also feed a lot, then this can work.

I strongly suggest that people understand the totality of what is happening and that nitrate and phosphate tests are just one small piece that mean nothing without context.

 

[vetteguy53081]

It seems that the general consensus is that coral's zooxanthellae utilize nitrates for coral growth, coloring, etc. But on average, is there some sort of chart or general knowledge about how many nitrates corals can pull from the water in a given amount of time? For instance, One Polyp of Zoanthid will remove approximately 1ppm Nitrate per month. I know that is a huge overestimation there by a lot. But it is just an example!

Thank you in advance!!

Coral polyps, which are animals, and zooxanthellae, the plant cells that live within them, have a mutualistic relationship. Coral polyps produce carbon dioxide and water as byproducts of cellular respiration. The zooxanthellae cells use carbon dioxide and water to carry out photosynthesis. Tiny plant cells called zooxanthellae live within most types of coral polyps. The symbiotic relation is based on the corals inability to generate sufficient amounts of food and the algae’s ability for photosynthesis and converting chemical elements into energy. The coral in return provides protection as well as a nutrient rich environment for excellent algae growth.

 

[schooncw]

If that is the general consensus, it is wrong...

This is totally general, but most microalgae cannot use nitrate directly, but instead get their nitrogen from ammonia or ammonium, aminos or assimilating bacteria through their slime coat. Some hosts can convert nitrate for microalgae to use, but it costs them energy sometimes in the range of 30-60%... not great for the coral. Some hosts can recycle nitrogen of dead/decaying/releasing symbionts to be reused meaning that you only need new nitrogen for growth and not so much maintenance (this is not 100% true in all cases, but let's go with it to keep it simple).

Macroalgae can use nitrate directly. Chaeto, hair, etc. Most can also use ammonia/ammonium.

Both can also get nitrogen from amino acids and/or bacteria if they can catch and assimilate them - the ability to do this depends from coral to coral and algae to algae. Anything with a slime coat can do it if they can catch, but the lose a math game with so little surface area compared to the rest of the tank, especially while small. This is not known to be effective in captivity as it is in the ocean where bacteria levels are 50x and even amino supplements are often incomplete if they even list what aminos you are adding (not all of them are the same).

Microalgae that ammonia/ammonium can reduce nitrate on the back end since this does not enter the nitrogen cycle any further. However, I doubt that they are good source for doing so.

The best way to control or remove nitrate is with anoxic bacteria that use the oxygen in the no3 and turn it into nitrogen gas. Once you understand that corals don't really use nitrate, you see that the corals get from the front end and then bacteria can use the back end and grow to equilibrium. Deeper places in the sand and established rock (not so much dry/dead rock, at least for a few years) are very good at this. These places with no oxygen can get the nitrate down to levels that you need ICP to test at about .1 or .2. This is the last step in the nitrogen cycle that most people do not even know exist.

Reviving the thread! I have been in the hobby all of my life-literally-and in the industry as a mfg and distributor sales rep. Someone is insisting that you can VISUALIZE nitrogen gas "bubbles" escaping from live rock, marine pure blocks, etc., after anaerobic bacteria has converted it. Never seen this in my systems or any, for that matter.
Thoughts?

 

[jda]

I don't know what all the people in the world have said, but anoxic bacteria convert no3 into nitrogen gas - this is the final phase of the nitrogen cycle. You can sometimes see bubbles in some sandbeds, but I have no idea if they are nitrogen alone, or what. Some have said hydrogen sulfide, but they are wrong about that too. I really don't care. I don't see the other gasses in the water either, but I know that they area there.

 

[schooncw]

"Don't know what all the people in the world have said, people are wrong, don't care anyway....." thanks for the reply and Happy New Year.