Current Quarantine Protocol

[Jay Hemdal]

I would probably have to find the best local suppliers. I’m in Orlando, do you happen to recommend anyone in central Florida? I believe WWC and TopShelf are my best best locally but I’m willing to drive a bit for quality.

Would you still recommend dipping? If so which specific ones ?

Sorry, I don’t know the Orlando area. I think you should ask those questions on one of the coral sections here.

 

[kboogie]

I would probably have to find the best local suppliers. I’m in Orlando, do you happen to recommend anyone in central Florida? I believe WWC and TopShelf are my best best locally but I’m willing to drive a bit for quality.

Would you still recommend dipping? If so which specific ones ?

Think of your aquarium health the same way you think of the health of a severely immunocompromised child. For these children, a simple cold could be fatal. What procedures would you want to occur before letting a guest into your home? Would you trust the guest if they said they followed the procedures but you could not verify? That is how you have to view these things. In this hobby, people have to learn the lesson the hard way, typically a very expensive system crash or mass causality event before they take these thing seriously. If possible you want to know the specifics of the quarantine process followed by your suppliers. You want to know the details of the medications or dips they do. Then make sure all of that aligns with a risk tolerance you have.

It is amazing how patience and discipline can avoid many of the "difficulties" in this hobby. Take from those of us who have learned the hard way.

 

[alex37310]

Think of your aquarium health the same way you think of the health of a severely immunocompromised child. For these children, a simple cold could be fatal. What procedures would you want to occur before letting a guest into your home? Would you trust the guest if they said they followed the procedures but you could not verify? That is how you have to view these things. In this hobby, people have to learn the lesson the hard way, typically a very expensive system crash or mass causality event before they take these thing seriously. If possible you want to know the specifics of the quarantine process followed by your suppliers. You want to know the details of the medications or dips they do. Then make sure all of that aligns with a risk tolerance you have.

It is amazing how patience and discipline can avoid many of the "difficulties" in this hobby. Take from those of us who have learned the hard way.

I’m a total believer in 100% quarantine. My only issue is not having the proper lighting to sustain a coral in quarantine.. I have 7g setup and cycled that’s running empty and a 20g in middle of a quanrantine for my new tang. Should I just not get corals until I can afford a light? I ended up getting a zoa from top shelf, I dipped in coral rx pro for 10min

 

[kboogie]

I’m a total believer in 100% quarantine. My only issue is not having the proper lighting to sustain a coral in quarantine.. I have 7g setup and cycled that’s running empty and a 20g in middle of a quanrantine for my new tang. Should I just not get corals until I can afford a light? I ended up getting a zoa from top shelf, I dipped in coral rx pro for 10min

You are living the dilemma faced by most hobbyists. At the end of the day, it is about how important is it to you to "guarantee" you do not introduce pests and infections into your aquarium versus "reducing the likelihood" of introducing pests and infections. This decision is based on many factors including the space you have to quarantine, the budget you have to get the proper equipment to quarantine, and your tolerance for loss of livestock and dealing with the issue associated with not quarantining.

In the most crude way of making this decision, you could ask yourself "Can I afford the necessary equipment and do I have the space to setup proper quarantine?" If the answer is yes then you quarantine. If the answer is no, then you take the steps to reduce the likelihood of infections or pests. That includes buying from reputable stores, doing dips with products like Coral RX Pro, and closely observing the item prior to purchase. Just make sure if you go down the path it is not a substitute for a full quarantine it is only a risk reduction activity.

After losing over $5K in fish from a velvet outbreak that would have not occurred if I followed a full quarantine regimen, I'm am firmly in the quarantine camp. I'm so much in that camp, that I passed up a great deal on the ideal Asfur Angelfish because my quarantine tank is currently full with 5 Bimacs and a Purple Tang. I'll just have to hope another one at the right price shows up again.

 

[pocketsand]

in tanking a tank fallow, i was able to catch my last remaining fish and get him in a newly setup qt (a red headed salon wrasse). He seems healthy and happy in there but this tank is new and totally uncycled. In this case, what would you guys suggest for cycling? I have some sump LR but don't really want to be using LR in this due to the absorption and other issues noted in this thread. I am considering some bio balls and Fritz 900 but have no experience with the Frtiz 900. Thoughts?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

in tanking a tank fallow, i was able to catch my last remaining fish and get him in a newly setup qt (a red headed salon wrasse). He seems healthy and happy in there but this tank is new and totally uncycled. In this case, what would you guys suggest for cycling? I have some sump LR but don't really want to be using LR in this due to the absorption and other issues noted in this thread. I am considering some bio balls and Fritz 900 but have no experience with the Frtiz 900. Thoughts?

That’s a tough call - I always avoid setting up tanks on the fly, I keep a sponge filter in the main tank for use in the QT.
You’re correct, live rock will absorb copper.
Fritzyme and bioballs will work, but you need to confirm that it is by monitoring the ammonia daily and adding more if the ammonia rises.

 

[RastaReefarian]

Thanks for the very detailed QT process, it's proved to be very educational.

I have two clowns in a 40g QT on day 21 of copper treatment and they seem happy as clams so far. But I admittingly didn't cycle the QT tank. I'm monitoring ammonia with a Seachem alert sensor and physically removing uneaten food/fish poop with a turkey baster daily. My plan was to monitor the ammonia sensor and do water changes as necessary, but so far I'm still in the "safe" zone on the ammonia sensor, so things seem to be going almost too well. Am I missing anything? Minimally I'm planning a 100% water change in 9 days to remove all copper and start prazi, but I was expecting to change water more frequently and I'm wondering if I should be regardless.

Thanks

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for the very detailed QT process, it's proved to be very educational.

I have two clowns in a 40g QT on day 21 of copper treatment and they seem happy as clams so far. But I admittingly didn't cycle the QT tank. I'm monitoring ammonia with a Seachem alert sensor and physically removing uneaten food/fish poop with a turkey baster daily. My plan was to monitor the ammonia sensor and do water changes as necessary, but so far I'm still in the "safe" zone on the ammonia sensor, so things seem to be going almost too well. Am I missing anything? Minimally I'm planning a 100% water change in 9 days to remove all copper and start prazi, but I was expecting to change water more frequently and I'm wondering if I should be regardless.

Thanks

Well, I’m surprised you haven’t run into ammonia issues, did you seed the QT with any bacteria? I don’t fully trust the readings on ammonia alerts - do you have another way to double check the ammonia?

Other than that, it sounds like you are on the right path here.

 

[RastaReefarian]

Well, I’m surprised you haven’t run into ammonia issues, did you seed the QT with any bacteria? I don’t fully trust the readings on ammonia alerts - do you have another way to double check the ammonia?

Other than that, it sounds like you are on the right path here.

Thanks, your comment about not trusting the ammonia alert motivated me to test ammonia separately and the result was high, so I did a 60% water change and will start doing that more regularly.

Disappointed that the ammonia alert seems to be junk, although I went down the internet rabbit hole reading that the seachem alerts test for ununionized ammonia which is toxic whereas the test kits include ionised ammonia and ammonium which aren't. So, maybe the seachem alert is working? I don't know. I'll start doing frequent water changes to be safe.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks, your comment about not trusting the ammonia alert motivated me to test ammonia separately and the result was high, so I did a 60% water change and will start doing that more regularly.

Disappointed that the ammonia alert seems to be junk, although I went down the internet rabbit hole reading that the seachem alerts test for ununionized ammonia which is toxic whereas the test kits include ionised ammonia and ammonium which aren't. So, maybe the seachem alert is working? I don't know. I'll start doing frequent water changes to be safe.

The ratio between ionized and unionized ammonia is mostly affected by the pH of the water. If you have a relatively low pH (less toxic ammonia) and you get a low reading on the Seachem alert, but a high reading on a total ammonia test, then that is expected. However, if you get a low reading on the Seachem alert, a high pH reading and a high total ammonia test, then the Seachem alert is faulty.

 

[Reefer Dan]

@Jay Hemdal Are there any additional steps you would recommend when trying to QT uronema prone fish?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal Are there any additional steps you would recommend when trying to QT uronema prone fish?

Inter cellular Uronema can't be treated effectively - oral metronidazole might work at 1% in the diet, but generally, by the time it has been diagnosed, the fish have stopped eating.

I've been able to kill free living Uronema with formalin or chloroquine - but that won't work for the internal uronema.

Luckily, internal Uronema does not seem to be contagious - fish pick it up in the supply chain somehow and then then show up with the classic lesions in the LFS or your home, but by then, it is too late.

I "treat" Uronema by avoiding small green chromis and cheap anthias - they seem to have it most often.

 

[Reefer Dan]

Inter cellular Uronema can't be treated effectively - oral metronidazole might work at 1% in the diet, but generally, by the time it has been diagnosed, the fish have stopped eating.

I've been able to kill free living Uronema with formalin or chloroquine - but that won't work for the internal uronema.

Luckily, internal Uronema does not seem to be contagious - fish pick it up in the supply chain somehow and then then show up with the classic lesions in the LFS or your home, but by then, it is too late.

I "treat" Uronema by avoiding small green chromis and cheap anthias - they seem to have it most often.

I’m wanting to try getting a few chromis and evansi Anthias, but I’m trying to figure out how to give them the best chance at avoiding external uronema. I understand internal isn’t really treatable.

So are you talking formalin dips or doses? Really been trying to avoid that chemical but it seems to be the only thing that is consistently recommended.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I’m wanting to try getting a few chromis and evansi Anthias, but I’m trying to figure out how to give them the best chance at avoiding external uronema. I understand internal isn’t really treatable.

So are you talking formalin dips or doses? Really been trying to avoid that chemical but it seems to be the only thing that is consistently recommended.

Dosing formalin at 25 ppm as a static bath, or a one hour 167 ppm dip and move to a fresh tank. You can also try 150 ppm dip for one hour and then return it to a tank with 25 ppm. Beware that there is some incorrect information out there saying to use formalin at 250 ppm. While some tropical fish will survive this, that is actually a cold water dose that has gotten misapplied to tropical tanks....

 

[Reefer Dan]

Dosing formalin at 25 ppm as a static bath, or a one hour 167 ppm dip and move to a fresh tank. You can also try 150 ppm dip for one hour and then return it to a tank with 25 ppm. Beware that there is some incorrect information out there saying to use formalin at 250 ppm. While some tropical fish will survive this, that is actually a cold water dose that has gotten misapplied to tropical tanks....

Any chance a peroxide dip would work instead or starting with metroplex day 1? Formalin seems harder to source and get rid of than a lot of other chemicals.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Any chance a peroxide dip would work instead or starting with metroplex day 1? Formalin seems harder to source and get rid of than a lot of other chemicals.

As I said, there isn’t any way to kill internal Uronema and it just isn’t very contagious.

Metroplex in the food at 1% BEFORE the fish shows any symptoms has some theoretical benefit.

Peroxide won’t work any better than formalin - it doesn’t get inside the fish. Peroxide has only been scientifically tested on Amyloodinium, all other uses are extrapolated from that.

Formalin only works for external Uronema and I’ve only seen that on seahorses and seadragons.

 

[Reefer Dan]

As I said, there isn’t any way to kill internal Uronema and it just isn’t very contagious.

Metroplex in the food at 1% BEFORE the fish shows any symptoms has some theoretical benefit.

Peroxide won’t work any better than formalin - it doesn’t get inside the fish. Peroxide has only been scientifically tested on Amyloodinium, all other uses are extrapolated from that.

Formalin only works for external Uronema and I’ve only seen that on seahorses and seadragons.

Thank you Jay, good info. Just to clarify and ensure my understanding of what you said is correct— external uronema doesn’t become internal uronema?

I was trying to approach it from the perspective of trying to kill external before the damage was done, but it sounds like you are saying they are different?

So really it’s roulette with fish and isn’t something that should be tried to prevent with new fish, but just be aware deaths from it happen?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you Jay, good info. Just to clarify and ensure my understanding of what you said is correct— external uronema doesn’t become internal uronema?

I was trying to approach it from the perspective of trying to kill external before the damage was done, but it sounds like you are saying they are different?

So really it’s roulette with fish and isn’t something that should be tried to prevent with new fish, but just be aware deaths from it happen?

I've not seen inter cellular Uronema cross between fish from different importation groups. What I mean is; let's say I bring in a group of 25 green chromis. I may see Uronema lesions in a percentage of them, but not in other fish from other shipments in the same system with them. Can I say for certain that the Uronema isn't transmitting between green chromis? No, but by not seeing it transmit from the green chromis onto other fish in the system, I presume not.

In case you haven't seen it, here is a link to my Uronema article:

Uronema / Red Band Disease - Hemdal

Red Band Syndrome in Marine Fishes: Caused by the Protozoan; Uronema sp. Jay Hemdal Introduction: This moderately common disease of certain species of marine fish is so often misdiagnosed that most aquarists apply incorrect treatment methods...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Reefer Dan]

I've not seen inter cellular Uronema cross between fish from different importation groups. What I mean is; let's say I bring in a group of 25 green chromis. I may see Uronema lesions in a percentage of them, but not in other fish from other shipments in the same system with them. Can I say for certain that the Uronema isn't transmitting between green chromis? No, but by not seeing it transmit from the green chromis onto other fish in the system, I presume not.

In case you haven't seen it, here is a link to my Uronema article:

Uronema / Red Band Disease - Hemdal

Red Band Syndrome in Marine Fishes: Caused by the Protozoan; Uronema sp. Jay Hemdal Introduction: This moderately common disease of certain species of marine fish is so often misdiagnosed that most aquarists apply incorrect treatment methods...

www.reef2reef.com

Appreciate your insights/take on it. Thanks, very helpful!

 

[Lostoften]

@Jay Hemdal for anthias no deviation from standard protocol recommended? Ensure they are eating well then ease into copper?