Cyanobacteria

Idoc

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@Idoc

Can you ID, and how to treat?

Thank you
I've looked really closely at those pictures and can't tell a definite type if dino, or if dinos are even there. A couple pics look like there might be something, but as @Lasse said, there can be other things that look like dinos when blurred in a picture.

But, I have seen in my tank that dinos and cyano do seem to group together often. So, for the OP, I think this is encouraging... because, if this are dinos, there don't seem to be too many present. In a bad outbreak of dinos, i would expect those slides and pics to be covered. Only seeing a few is encouraging. Plus, I believe all tanks probably have some dinos present at all times, but they are controlled. My recommendation would be to get the no3 around 5-10ppm regularly and po4 under 0.1ppm and ride this out awhile without making drastic changes... which could possibly give dinos a chance to proliferate. As previously mentioned, it may take a few months or more. But, cyano is easy to siphon out...
 

Lasse

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IMO - both matbuilding cyanobacteria and matbuilding dinoflagellates always exist as individuals in a healthy aquarium. However - certain environmental triggers seems to make them to coming together and form this mats and something happens with their reproduction rate - it explode. The mats - as I understand - is mainly originates from various carbohydrates, hence both protective and can serve as energy storage. There is rather many observations indicate tha low nutrient concentrations (in aquarium) can be one of these environmental triggers. Some may say - not in my case - 0.1 ppm in PO4 and 1-2 ppm in NO3. Many of us see the measurements in this low nutrient concentrations as rock solid and of proven accuracy, I do not - I see it more like rocket science in order to get as reliable readings as possible in this low concentrations because we use this reading in order to adapt our tactic in fighting this matbuilding behavior among those organisms.

PO4 - Hannas ULR P and PO4 checkers is considered industry standard but we often forget that the accuracy is ±0,02 ppm. This means - if we read 0.03 ppm - the real result can be between 0.01 - 0.05 ppm (if everything else is spot on) And only this can send us to hell or heaven. 0.01 is too low and 0.05 for many the perfect level. Besides this one must also take into account systematic errors. As an example - I discovered that my newly purchased Hi-774 show + 0,08 ppm above my Triton results. I read 0.1 ppm on my reader - use a lot of GFO - did not get lower. My corals did not look as they should and I got Cyanobacteria/dinoflagellates in some place for the first time during 3.5 years. all indicate - nutrient starvation but i relay on my Hanna. After the triton test -I change tactic and withdraw 0.08 from my HI-774 readings and thing turn back to be good. Now I alter between 0.06 - 0.1 (Triton adapted values - 0.14 - 0.18 ppm my HI-774) This is probably not valid for all HI-774 checkers but I think it is a very good illustration that you should be critical to your own readings if you have signs showing something else than your actual reading. Must also say - that I had run very low in PO4 for nearly three months (probably around 0.01 - 0.00) and my reserves in sand, stone and other places of P was probably emptied.

NO3 - Unlike PO4 - is not the only N source for photosynthesis and growth of photosynthetic organism. NH3/NH4, NOx and amino acids are probably more energy efficient N sources than NO3. In spite of this - there is many strong indications and experiences that NO3 (or the lack of NO3) has a critical role in cyanobacteria/dinoflagellates mat forming. I use to say - a level around 2 ppm is sufficient but I think that I have to reconsider that to only be valid if you in a steady way dose NO3. In that case - you have a steady flux of NO3 through the system. If you do not dose - maybe 5 - 10 ppm is the level to hit.

To this, one must also speculate that at the same time there are disturbances in the ecosystem among the microorganisms - maybe causing inefficient nitrification. If so - the NO2 level can rise and affect your readings of NO3. Even low levels as 0.02 too 0.05 ppm NO2 will alrise the NO3 readings between 1 to 2 ppm - 2.5 to 5 ppm. (depending on test brand) If you read 2 ppm NO3 it could easily be 0 if you have traces of NO2 in the water. Therefore - 5 - 10 ppm (if you do not dose) can be a safe level - you know that it probably is NO3 present. However - the exact role for NO3 (if it is not as a nutrient) in this mat forming process is not known for me - but my experiences strongly indicate such a role.

It could be as bad as that a NO3 reading is not useful if you do not know if you have NO2 in the water or not

Sincerely Lasse
 

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IMO - both matbuilding cyanobacteria and matbuilding dinoflagellates always exist as individuals in a healthy aquarium. However - certain environmental triggers seems to make them to coming together and form this mats and something happens with their reproduction rate - it explode. The mats - as I understand - is mainly originates from various carbohydrates, hence both protective and can serve as energy storage. There is rather many observations indicate tha low nutrient concentrations (in aquarium) can be one of these environmental triggers. Some may say - not in my case - 0.1 ppm in PO4 and 1-2 ppm in NO3. Many of us see the measurements in this low nutrient concentrations as rock solid and of proven accuracy, I do not - I see it more like rocket science in order to get as reliable readings as possible in this low concentrations because we use this reading in order to adapt our tactic in fighting this matbuilding behavior among those organisms.

PO4 - Hannas ULR P and PO4 checkers is considered industry standard but we often forget that the accuracy is ±0,02 ppm. This means - if we read 0.03 ppm - the real result can be between 0.01 - 0.05 ppm (if everything else is spot on) And only this can send us to hell or heaven. 0.01 is too low and 0.05 for many the perfect level. Besides this one must also take into account systematic errors. As an example - I discovered that my newly purchased Hi-774 show + 0,08 ppm above my Triton results. I read 0.1 ppm on my reader - use a lot of GFO - did not get lower. My corals did not look as they should and I got Cyanobacteria/dinoflagellates in some place for the first time during 3.5 years. all indicate - nutrient starvation but i relay on my Hanna. After the triton test -I change tactic and withdraw 0.08 from my HI-774 readings and thing turn back to be good. Now I alter between 0.06 - 0.1 (Triton adapted values - 0.14 - 0.18 ppm my HI-774) This is probably not valid for all HI-774 checkers but I think it is a very good illustration that you should be critical to your own readings if you have signs showing something else than your actual reading. Must also say - that I had run very low in PO4 for nearly three months (probably around 0.01 - 0.00) and my reserves in sand, stone and other places of P was probably emptied.

NO3 - Unlike PO4 - is not the only N source for photosynthesis and growth of photosynthetic organism. NH3/NH4, NOx and amino acids are probably more energy efficient N sources than NO3. In spite of this - there is many strong indications and experiences that NO3 (or the lack of NO3) has a critical role in cyanobacteria/dinoflagellates mat forming. I use to say - a level around 2 ppm is sufficient but I think that I have to reconsider that to only be valid if you in a steady way dose NO3. In that case - you have a steady flux of NO3 through the system. If you do not dose - maybe 5 - 10 ppm is the level to hit.

To this, one must also speculate that at the same time there are disturbances in the ecosystem among the microorganisms - maybe causing inefficient nitrification. If so - the NO2 level can rise and affect your readings of NO3. Even low levels as 0.02 too 0.05 ppm NO2 will alrise the NO3 readings between 1 to 2 ppm - 2.5 to 5 ppm. (depending on test brand) If you read 2 ppm NO3 it could easily be 0 if you have traces of NO2 in the water. Therefore - 5 - 10 ppm (if you do not dose) can be a safe level - you know that it probably is NO3 present. However - the exact role for NO3 (if it is not as a nutrient) in this mat forming process is not known for me - but my experiences strongly indicate such a role.

It could be as bad as that a NO3 reading is not useful if you do not know if you have NO2 in the water or not

Sincerely Lasse

I recommend everyone bookmark this post. This is so spot on. I would only add that dosing nitrate (IME) lowers PO4 quickly, so always have some PO4 solution ready to go when dosing NO3.

Also: wear sunscreen, stop vaping, and call your Mom or another loved one. :)
 
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Ok so ill ride it out for a bit, keeping my Nitrate levels elevated and go from there.

Considering the Vibrant through my system out of whack for awhile, and im dialing it back in. What about my populations? I have re added a couple types of pods. Which had seem to be whipped out form Vibrant or the combination of using reefflux for Bryopsis.

What about using any Dr Tims products like Waste away and Refresh?

Or is it best just to ride it out for awhile? I honestly don't know much about the Dr Tims solutions, I had just stumbled apon it as a "apparent" solutions to cyano or dino.

Thoughts.

Thanks again guys, much appreciated
 

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In those situations - maybe adding bacteria can help but if so doo - it should only be bacteria - not any else compound as organic carbon. I would prefer to take "mulm" from another well working aquaria and mix in my not so well working aquaria - but stay away (man 1000 of miles) from other "excellent" solutions of unknown content :p

Sincerely Lasse
 

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I still stand by saying dinos. I would post your pics on the dino thread, or @taricha could possibly give you an id.

I personally feel like in those pics i see cyano, diatoms, and dinos.
 

Lasse

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I still stand by saying dinos. I would post your pics on the dino thread, or @taricha could possibly give you an id.

I personally feel like in those pics i see cyano, diatoms, and dinos.
IMO - it is not so important what´s the primary agent - because IMO - the treatment tactic is more or less the same. I more and more address cyanobacteria/dinoflagellates infections instead of cyanobacteria or dinoflagellates infection.

Sincerely Lasse
 

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IMO - it is not so important what´s the primary agent - because IMO - the treatment tactic is more or less the same. I more and more address cyanobacteria/dinoflagellates infections instead of cyanobacteria or dinoflagellates infection.

Sincerely Lasse

While I will agree that when cyano, diatoms, dino get out of control, there is a major imbalance in the system. So part of recovery is going to look the same. But if you look at the dino threads, those who beat dinos also did so by different methods targeted at that specific type. Some kinds of dino hug below the sand and because of this mostly do not exist in the water column and methods that work for ones that occupy the water column are useless. Which is why many frustrated people post that they don't know why what worked for others isn't working for them. Dinos that live more on the surfaces and glass can often be reduced greatly by even things as simple as a diatom filter or a UV.

I also understand that every system has dinos, they are actually part of the ecosystem, but when they become out of balance, then specific measures are most useful at bringing them back into balance.

I myself have been battling large and small cell amphidinium. They are mostly back into balance. But it was a lot of work. A lot of monitoring and dosing NO3 and PO4, and Microbacter 7. A lot of vacuuming the sand, most of the time through a 5 micron sock, and then dumping the water back in. Now that is no longer necessary and I have bumped up my clean up crew, and probably 2 times a week I use a turkey baster to blow the cyano and dino into the water column so that it can go through my filtration, and my UV. All of these things together are working very well. And week by week it is looking better. And what use to be dinos and cyano is now more and more coraline. It takes time to get everything in balance.
 
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Best I could do teying to get photos. Thoughts? And what is my action plan?

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I see procentrum almost certain. The circular pyrenoid in the middle is the tell I am seeing. But here is the ID guide.
 

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taricha

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The circular pyrenoid in the middle is the tell I am seeing. But here is the ID guide.
that tell is not definitive. My amphidinium have strong pyrenoid also...

20200522_151004.jpg


And I think the OPs dinos are a closer match to this. The 1 second video is the most persuasive to my eye.
 
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that tell is not definitive. My amphidinium have strong pyrenoid also...

20200522_151004.jpg


And I think the OPs dinos are a closer match to this. The 1 second video is the most persuasive to my eye.
If it is the types you presume it to be. What actions do you recommend?
 

taricha

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Given that most of your nuisance is not dinos - majority is cyano - and you have plenty of diatoms too, I'd say you've gotten some good advice from @Lasse and others thus far in the thread. patience, dose to alleviate low nutrient conditions, and manual removal. Together it'll gradually shift things to the good, regardless of which exact nuisance is the primary concern.
 
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How much Neonitro can I safely dose at one time?

Example, i can raise 2 ppm in a day. But is there a threshold with the amount that becomes stressful?
 
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In those situations - maybe adding bacteria can help but if so doo - it should only be bacteria - not any else compound as organic carbon. I would prefer to take "mulm" from another well working aquaria and mix in my not so well working aquaria - but stay away (man 1000 of miles) from other "excellent" solutions of unknown content :p

Sincerely Lasse
What type of bacteria/product would you recommend, if I were to dose bacteria?

Thanks @Lasse, some wonderful information for me to take this experience, and learn from it. Cheers
 

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that tell is not definitive. My amphidinium have strong pyrenoid also...

20200522_151004.jpg


And I think the OPs dinos are a closer match to this. The 1 second video is the most persuasive to my eye.

The Master has spoken! :) Thanks @taricha . I need to upgrade my mental processor for these short videos.
 

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