Hi, Can I have your help identifying these Dino’s?
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Doesnt look like dinos but im no expert. Kind of looks like phytoplankton.I completed two courses of blackout and Dr Tim's Dino killer plan, and think that I am on my way... NO3 is slightly >10ppm for the past two weeks and PO4 has to be dosed to stay elevated. I am attempting to maintain at approx 0.03ppm.
I am in the midst of a rather massive algae outbreak now. I went ahead and dosed Flux Rx because it's a bit silly and starting to produce bubbles. I have growth on my sanbed, as well, but it isn't clumping like dinos were or blowing bubbles down there. I grabbed a video of a sample from the rock.
Does this look like algae or ostreopsis? or both... lol
Sorry, I can’t see the video on my iPad. If there is motion, likely dinos.I completed two courses of blackout and Dr Tim's Dino killer plan, and think that I am on my way... NO3 is slightly >10ppm for the past two weeks and PO4 has to be dosed to stay elevated. I am attempting to maintain at approx 0.03ppm.
I am in the midst of a rather massive algae outbreak now. I went ahead and dosed Flux Rx because it's a bit silly and starting to produce bubbles. I have growth on my sanbed, as well, but it isn't clumping like dinos were or blowing bubbles down there. I grabbed a video of a sample from the rock.
Does this look like algae or ostreopsis? or both... lol
Agree on amphidinium most likelyI think possibly amphidinium, but I’m not an ID person. Let’s see if a better set of eyes can ID these.
I do not.Do yoh feed nori? Or another form of algae?
Feeding is good, but it's not the same as dosing N and P under our model on this thread. In a nutshell, that's because feeding (which sort of implies a Redfield-like ratio of nutrients) ultimately raises all nutrients in the system.
Doing that under bloom conditions really only feeds the bacteria that are feeding the dino bloom and does nothing to change tank conditions.
But read on – you'll like this next part a little better!
Inoculate Your Tank
Don't forget to consider inoculating your tank with some detritus, dirty sand or rock pieces from a healthy system if you can. If your LFS sells live rock, try to get a scoop of muck from that system.....I'd be willing to pay by the pound as if it was live sand, and get some water in the bag too!
Some Science
I don't have this article (link below) on my blog yet. Some scientists proposed this diagram as a model on the effect of the N : P ratio, water temp, and hydrodynamic conditions on a bloom of Ostreopsis from the Adriadic Sea.
Fig. 8. Conceptual model of the effect of N ratio, water temperature and hydrodynamic conditions on both bloom onset and maintenance of Ostreopsis cf. ovata. Green (lighter) and red (darker) arrows symbolize positive and negative effect, respectively. Dotted line represents a slight effect relative to solid line.
(BTW, the red arrow on the right side of the diagram is clipped off of the original photo for some reason...it connects "Hydro. conditions" with "Water temp.")
Note: It's important to remember they're talking about the ocean in that diagram, where by comparison with aquarium standards, flow (the "hydrodynamic condition") in the ocean is....
Storms have a lot to do with these differences.
- much much stronger
- especially during storms and other localized chaotic episodes
- more laminar
- responsible for the "scrubbing" or cleaning effects of a water change
- responsible for raising and lowering nutrient, salinity and temperature levels.
More stagnant seas do have worse, more-persistent Ostreopsis blooms.....but as we're seeing that's a simple statement, but not a simple conclusion.
Our tanks that have the most chaotic flow almost always also have the weakest flow...so it's hard for me to judge whether increased chaotic flow would be more effective. (Does anyone with Tunze Stream or Nanostream pumps have a dino outbreak??? I'm gonna have to think....off-hand nobody comes to mind.) But even the tanks with the strongest flow can't hope to emulate all of the effects of flow in the ocean just with pumps. That's why emulated storm surges, whether automatically or manually induced, can be important to emulate. And why nutrient additions and the other supporting solutions we apply (see the rest of this thread!) can make so much sense.
So even this diagram is only a "proposed model" – it's not a written solution to Ostreopsis blooms by any stretch. But let's dig in and see what that diagram does tell us...
A Walk Through The Ostreopsis Diagram
Beginning at the bottom "Hydrodynamic conditions" box of the diagram I'll make some comments as we go...
- Blasting the rocks and sand and "restoring nutrients" with N and P dosing roughly corresponds with "High" hydrodynamic conditions and the green arrow pointing to the N : P Ratio box. (Notice there's a red line too though and keep reading.)
As you can see from that N : P Ratio box...
- Keeping nutrients elevated, in particular nitrogen (N : P greater than Redfield) has a strong negative effect on bloom onset.....a "good preventative" but "weak cure" is how I'd say it.
- Normal N : P levels (≈Redfield) are not beneficial in this scenario.....there is a strong positive effect for Ostreopsis blooms to start and to continue to bloom under this condition.
- In fact, elevated N : P levels ("raised nutrients") are shown to have only a weakly negative effect on an Ostreopsis bloom. It may only be the first trigger that has to be tripped before the bloom will stop.
- Ironically, however, once a bloom has started, lower N : P ratios is the first thing on the diagram that has a strong negative effect on an existing bloom.
- Unless you can lower your tank temperature to <68ºF, then lowering the N : P ratio (less than Redfield) may as well be the only thing on the diagram that has a strong negative effect on a bloom.
- If you can keep your tank temperature under 77ºF then temperature will not contribute to a bloom starting. (<77ºF does not appear to affect a bloom that is already happening.)
- It's important to manage reducing the N : P ratio closely, as this same condition (N : P < Redfield) also has a strong positive effect on bloom start. The opposite of what you want, so crashing N and P to zero with a vodka+GFO blitz is not the idea.
If you have already brought up your nutrients to recommended levels (which are > Redfield) then based on the diagram, applying macro algae or an ATS seems like it would be the way to go. Either option should burn through the availble N quickly without putting a severe enough cramp on either N or P to harm the rest of the tank.
I would probably continue the same maintenance dose you had been putting in the tank to boost N and P.
But stop managing the ppm's...let them fall as the algae grows.
We hope that this triggers the dino's to revert back to photosynthesis and consuming nothing but dissolved nutrients....therefore stopping the blooming behavior and the toxin formation. Once things are stabilized without the dino's around, then wean the tank off of N and P dosing slowly.
Reference:
A conceptual model of annual Ostreopsis cf. ovata blooms in the northern Adriatic Sea based on the synergic effects of hydrodynamics, temperature, and the N : P ratio of water column nutrients - Scientific Figure on ResearchGate. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...re_and_the_NP_ratio_of_water_column_nutrients
@taricha
oops, response belowOn month 3 or so with battling Ostreopsis with no luck.
NO3 @ 10
- Stopped water changes
- Tried blackout
- Tried Cruz's method
- Running 50 watt Jabao UV @140 gph for 3 weeks
P04 @ .031
After reading @mcarroll post on Redfield and the science behind it I'm still a little confused. What is the Redfield ratio and if I have an existing bloom, what N and P should I be targeting?
Love this hobby, but patience is slipping on this battle
On month 3 or so with battling Ostreopsis with no luck.
NO3 @ 10
- Stopped water changes
- Tried blackout
- Tried Cruz's method
- Running 50 watt Jabao UV @140 gph for 3 weeks
P04 @ .031
After reading @mcarroll post on Redfield and the science behind it I'm still a little confused. What is the Redfield ratio and if I have an existing bloom, what N and P should I be targeting?
Love this hobby, but patience is slipping on this battle
For the second time I had problems with dinos in my 100g reef.
Whenever my PO4 goes undetectable they return. I started dosing neophos and my PO4 was at 0.03 my NO3 at 5ppm. No positive results with these levels. On Saturday the dinos attacked some acroporas, before they were only in the sand ...
I took the following steps to resolve the issue.
- I turned off the skimmer.
- added neophos and neonitro PO4 0.1 and NO3 10ppm
- 3 days blackout
- Start chaeto refugium
- 55W UV in the sump (100gph)
- 1 vial biodigest - 1 vial bioptim
- Add live pods, phyto and rotifers
Monday the aquarium was completely free, I went back to the normal lighting routine and all the acroporas are great.
Somehow, I only get positive results when my PO4 is above 0.08, without these levels the dinos always seem to prevail.
Is your ID of ostreopsis solid? That's a very unusual history for ostreopsis.
Is your UV a 55 watt? I can't find a 50 watt made by Jebo.
The cells I can make out look like ostreopsis.Can you help me with ID? for a moment he also sees a small, fast and round one!
thanks.The cells I can make out look like ostreopsis.