Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?

[Mastiffsrule]

 

[Jpconer]

I think it's almost a crap shoot either way...I've done both over the years...I've had (mostly) fowlr tanks that were going great for years w/o any qt then suddenly have disease probs....and I've had a couple tanks that had everything quarantined before going into the display...but it seemed to me I lost more fish while in qt......so I honestly can't say which is best long term....I will note that only a few of 41 fish in my current 450g fowlr that was set up in Dec '06 were qt'd before going into it and i still have some of the original fish that stocked it which were not qt'd.

 

[HB AL]

I’m in the camp of NO quarantine. I’ve always bought my fish from the same lfs and just float and plop. They live in prestine water conditions, lots of biological filtration since I have a lot of rock. I also have a UV filter. I feed them high quality frozen fish food roughly 10 to 14 cubes a day. You could throw a bottle of ich or velvet in there and they would probably eat it while they are all laughing . I Just introduced my last fish a baby Blueline trigger a few weeks ago, and no fish came down with anything as is always the case.

 

[Punchanello]

You could throw a bottle of ich or velvet in there and they would probably eat it while they are all laughing .

You should, apparently it will boost their immune system. Maybe we all should, noobies like me included.

 

[BudgetReefer007]

stands to reason.. like with humans. im sure there are always outliers but the general idea seems solid (and has appeared to be proven solid). you'll always have different approaches and thats part of what makes this a great hobby!

 

[Squidward]

I’m in the camp of NO quarantine. I’ve always bought my fish from the same lfs and just float and plop. They live in prestine water conditions, lots of biological filtration since I have a lot of rock. I also have a UV filter. I feed them high quality frozen fish food roughly 10 to 14 cubes a day. You could throw a bottle of ich or velvet in there and they would probably eat it while they are all laughing . I Just introduced my last fish a baby Blueline trigger a few weeks ago, and no fish came down with anything as is always the case.

Just be thankful you've been lucky instead.

 

[Webslinger]

never quarantined for the last 6 years... I have never lost a fish to disease, but i haven't put a new fish in the tank in about 2 1/2 years as i am at capacity.

 

[TheHarold]

I dont want to read 14 pages. What is the consensus? lol

 

[Webslinger]

Too each their own! Get your ecosystem up to snuff. SLOW and steady wins the race.

 

[BeejReef]

hmmm.. speaking from no great experience, it clearly works for him.

I get the impression it is something you would have to build up to and actually do what he does (i.e. keeping a culture of blackworms, feeding a wide variety, etc.) It's easy to say, "I'm gonna do that," and then not really do it near as well. There's also no way to replicate the eye one must develop over a near lifetime.

In some ways, it's not that different from an observational QT. A severely ill fish is unlikely to survive the transition to a QT or a DT. It's always survival of the strongest and the fittest. He has a tank of very hardy and battle tested fish. They live forever, so he's not constantly buying new. When he does, his decades in the hobby and network of people he trusts allows him to purchase healthy fish.

It's unlikely he'd have success buying a lethargic, velvet infested, ammonia burned fish from a big box store any more than you or I would. That fish would still die. What would happen to his existing fish if he did that? We'll never know, bc he's not that stupid!

I personally do an observational QT and would treat if I saw signs of disease... at least early on. If ich or flukes (common cold) slip past me, what can I do. It was going to at some point anyhow. IMHO, there's a difference between letting a common malady slip by and dropping in a typhoid mary (velvet), straight from the box store.

 

[nereefpat]

There's always a lot of immunology talk in these threads...and there's always a lot of misinformation.

Immune response against protozoans (we often talk about ich and velvet) is complicated. Innate immunity plays a role in fighting off protozoan parasites. For example, neutrophils are highly mobile and respond to parasites within minutes. Adaptive components can help provide immunity against protozoa, but protozoa can change rapidly and make the process difficult. At least some protozoa can change and present different antigens. Scientists have a great understanding of malaria, but other protozoans are another story, because they haven't been given the same attention.

There is also always a lot of talk about food, and bacteria, and the immune system starting in the gut. "Immune system starts with a healthy gut" sounds great on a yogurt commercial, but there isn't much truth to it. The immune system is made up of neutrophils, eosinophils, mast cells, T-cells, lymphocytes, etc. These aren't made in, or influenced by the gut, or diet. They come from hematopoietic stem cells made in bone marrow.

I would believe that healthy diet contributes to overall health, growth, and development. But I wouldn't take it much further than that, when it comes to the immune system or immune response.

 

[MnFish1]

The immune system is made up of neutrophils, eosinophils, mast cells, T-cells, lymphocytes, etc. These aren't made in, or influenced by the gut, or diet. They come from hematopoietic stem cells made in bone marrow.

I would believe that healthy diet contributes to overall health, growth, and development. But I wouldn't take it much further than that, when it comes to the immune system or immune response.

I agree - except that I would add that there is a bit of confusing information above as well. Firstly - T-Cells are lymphocytes. There are at least 3 kinds of lymphocytes - T cells and B cells among them (don't know if you want to consider NK cells as lymphocytes as well). There are also macrophages. which act in conjunction with T cells and to a degree B cells.

In any case - in humans (and in fish) B cells produce antibodies that specifically can attack and kill protozoans (including CI). Whether you would take it further or not - (and I'm not talking about microbiomes) - its clearly documented that in fish (and humans) that poor nutritional status can cause poor immune function - and higher susceptibility to disease.

Fish do not have 'bone marrow' - their immune cells are produced in numerous areas - including the kidney.

 

[MnFish1]

I’m in the camp of NO quarantine. I’ve always bought my fish from the same lfs and just float and plop. They live in prestine water conditions, lots of biological filtration since I have a lot of rock. I also have a UV filter. I feed them high quality frozen fish food roughly 10 to 14 cubes a day. You could throw a bottle of ich or velvet in there and they would probably eat it while they are all laughing . I Just introduced my last fish a baby Blueline trigger a few weeks ago, and no fish came down with anything as is always the case.

Nice tank - I wonder as others have - whether part of your success relates to the high number of 'things' that could potentially 'eat' protozoans - as well as your low stocking density?

 

[S2G]

I dont want to read 14 pages. What is the consensus? lol

Basically same as page 1. Read up and make your own decision. Your money your tank do whatever you want. I do like seeing what others are doing though

 

[Paul B]

Just be thankful you've been lucky instead.

I like being lucky for 48 years. Maybe i should play the lottery.

OK, How come virtually no one who quarantines is lucky? I don't see any old quarantined fish.

He has a tank of very hardy and battle tested fish. They live forever, so he's not constantly buying new.

I actually do keep a bunch of fish that are not considered very hardy like pipefish, Queen anthius, copperband, hippo tang, etc.
I also have had many tangs and moorish Idols. No disease yet.

The immune system is made up of neutrophils, eosinophils, mast cells, T-cells, lymphocytes, etc. These aren't made in, or influenced by the gut, or diet. They come from hematopoietic stem cells made in bone marrow.

A fishes immune system is very different from a human. They have no bone marrow. As a matter of fact, their bones aren't even connected to other bones with ligaments like we have. Most of their bones aren't connected to anything and just kind of "float" there in the muscle just to give the fish some structure. I eat a lot of fish and know all about their bones.

A fishes immunity is mostly concentrated in it's slime. Something most of us don't have. A fishes skin is a living thing, ours is dead on the outside. The slime is also a living thing full of antibodies and antiparasitic substances but only if the fish gets the right diet. We humans can live "and Spawn" living on potato chips and cheap beer. Fish can't.

Fish need the correct bacteria and parasites in their diet to stay immune and they are immune from almost everything.

A diet of dry foods or a long period of quarantine is a sure recipe to have doomed fish which is the reason we don't see old quarantined fish dying of old age. All captive for should only die of old age. Why wouldn't they as they are all immune. (If you keep them correctly)

Something for you to read:

(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 Maria Angeles
Ref: Copyright © 2012 María Ángeles Esteban. This is an open access article distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.
(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.
According to these authors "probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance."The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes. End Quote
Another interesting fact found in a recent issue of Scientific American By Ferris Jabr | September 12, 2012 |
States that zebra fish whose guts were rich in bacteria absorbed more fats from their food as compared to fish in a germ free envirnment which in turn increased the number of energy-rich fat bubbles stored within the fish's intestinal cells for later use.

 

[Paul B]

In other words, fish need to be exposed to parasites to stay immune. You can spin that any way you like but I didn't make that up, the fish did which is why most quarantined fish after they even look at a picture of a parasite croak.
It is what it is.

To me, Ich is like hair algae. We have tried to get rid of it for decades and all sorts of silly things have been tried. With ich it was cleaner shrimp, Ginger, (Maryanne) Diatom filters, sponges, heat, Prizapro, copper, quarantine, tank transfer, etc. And after almost fifty years the vast majority of posts are about ich. Isn't that special. If those things worked, why do we write so much about ich. I don't.

With hair algae people try sea hares, urchins, algae bleenies, hydrogen sulfide, weed eaters, lack of light and manatees.
The second most frequent threads are about nusience algae. How about that.

I have a secret I would like to share with you. Algae is first of all healthy, but secondly, no one knows why it grows. No, not the scientists, not the researchers, not even Lady GaGa or me. No one. If they knew, it would be a thing of the past, but it is not.
Another hint, It doesn't come from an excess of nutrients. For decades my nitrates were 160 and forget phosphates and I had very little algae. But put a glass of RO water out in the sun and in two weeks you need a lawn mower to get rid of the algae. Maybe a gnat drowned in there to provide some iron, I don't know but neither does anyone else.
If algae wants to grow, it grows and it grows on every healthy reef in the world. I know because I dove on many healthy reefs all over the world.

But we can use algae "And" parasites for our benefit instead of using these silly, time consuming, expensive "cures".

You can't cure algae because it is not a disease but you can grow it someplace like in an algae scrubber where it's health benefits can be of use. It will naturally eliminate unwanted waste products for free. How about that, something that is free.

Parasites are also free, including velvet which is just another parasite sort of like ich on steroids. The fish don't care as they are immune from that too. If they are not, thats because we did something to eliminate that immunity. Not the fish store, the collector or Bugs Bunny, we did it.

Parasites have always been there just like bacteria and both of them are needed to have healthy fish.
Eliminate parasites and algae and watch your fish get sick.
I took this off Mustique in the Caribbean. Very few people live there as it is owned by Mick Jagger,Tommy Hillfiger, Bruce Adams and a few more. See any algae? OMG, you do. Those people have a lot of money and they are not trying to eliminate the algae or parasites.



You can read all the things researchers write and study their colorful charts, but most of those researchers don't even keep fish tanks and if they do, they are in a lab, the same place they keep rats. Do you know any researchers that have a tank of anything for 20 or 30 years? I don't.

I have a cousin who is a Marine Biology Professor and he never kept a fish. He SCUBA dove once to get his Phd.

Would I let him take care of my tank? Yeah right.

 

[MnFish1]

I actually do keep a bunch of fish that are not considered very hardy like pipefish, Queen anthius, copperband, hippo tang, etc.
I also have had many tangs and moorish Idols. No disease yet.

Since you have said your tank is 40 + years old - and that 'your fish die of old age' - Where have all the tangs and moorish idols gone? (I assume you traded them away - because you find them boring) - but - im sure the question is coming either way (yellow tangs at least are known to be up to 40 years old in the wild)

 

[MnFish1]

A fishes immunity is mostly concentrated in it's slime. Something most of us don't have. A fishes skin is a living thing, ours is dead on the outside. The slime is also a living thing full of antibodies and antiparasitic substances but only if the fish gets the right diet. We humans can live "and Spawn" living on potato chips and cheap beer. Fish can't.

This is only partly true - and humans do have 'a slime or sorts' - its called skin, the oils on our skin and the mostly dead/dying skin that produces a significant barrier against illness/infection (underneath the 'dead skin' is a very much living tissue (skin is considered the largest organ in the human body). Without this "slime" when humans have significant burns, for example - they often die due to overwhelming infection.

The Only way antibodies get into the slime is after infection (of the skin) - those antibodies are produced in organs inside the fish - and go to the skin when needed. There is no evidence that 'eating parasites' can cause or promote immunity to CI or anything else (except perhaps internal parasites/bacterial infection). Of course there are other substances present in slime (just as there are in living human skin) that act to prevent parasitic infection. Poor nutrition likely makes these substances less prevalent and thus the fish is more susceptible to disease.

I feed my fish (for the most part) dry food - as well as whatever they can eat in the tank - they have spawned. I feed 12 discus the same food - they spawn and raise young quite easily. A high quality dry food (IMO) is no different than frozen foods. You're right though - beer would not help fish.

 

[Paul B]

Since you have said your tank is 40 + years old - and that 'your fish die of old age' - Where have all the tangs and moorish idols gone? (I assume you traded them away - because you find them boring) - but - im sure the question is coming either way (yellow tangs at least are known to be up to 40 years old in the wild)

You don't read my posts much do you?
Over the years I post when one of my fish die of old age. There are no saltwater fish that I know of that we normally keep that live much more than 20 years except clowns.
I recently lost a pair of breeding bluestripe pipefish after about five years which is about their lifespan. Not knowing how old they were when I got them I am saying they died of old age.

The pair I had before them also lived about five years as did the pair I had before them and before them.
Last year I lost a breeding pair of Bangai Cardinals, (which I posted about) They have one of the shortest lifespans of any fish, just a few years. I also lost the pair I had before them and the pair before them. All after about 5 years. Are you getting the drift here?

My last hippo tang I had for about 12 years in my 100 gallon tank. I don't know how long they live but most of my Tangs live about 12 or 13 years. My present copperband may be 8 or 10 years old and I lost a pair of hermit crabs at 12 years old.

My last breeding pair of mandarins lived over 10 years.

My wrasses generally jump out as do garden eels and moray eels which I no longer keep.
Some of my fish starve which is a fault of mine such as my orange spotted filefish or twin spotted gobies.

My last Moorish Idol lived five years which is a failure, but for a Moorish Idol it is almost a record in a 100 gallon tank. But none of those fish ever died from a disease. It was all from either starving, usually a few weeks after I got them because I stupidly was not prepared to feed them.

Maybe yellow tangs live 40 years in the wild, I am not sure about that or how the person tracked that tang for 40 years.
Freshwater carp can live for 60 years, or so they say. I think 12 or 15 years is just fine for an ornamental, captive fish as most of them don't last a month.

I had a French Angel, copperband butterfly and Moorish Idol here in my Log book in 1976 when I or anyone else didn't know what we were doing. That was in a "40 gallon tank". No one at that time was keeping those fish for any length of time and that was also when I kept pennies in the tank to add copper.

I accidently killed that Angel after 4 years, many people today don't even keep them that long in a 300 gallon tank.
That was also before I came up with my "Healthy Fish" method that I use today.

This is only partly true - and humans do have 'a slime or sorts' - its called skin, the oils on our skin and the mostly dead/dying skin that produces a significant barrier against illness/infection (underneath the 'dead skin' is a very much living tissue (skin is considered the largest organ in the human body). Without this "slime" when humans have significant burns, for example - they often die due to overwhelming infection.

This is very subjective. A fishes skin is alive all the way through. Fish can even absorb chemicals through their skin. The slime on the Outside of a fishes skin is alive and helps fish skin heal which it does very fast. If we get a cut, it takes days or weeks to heal as the outside of our skin is dead and we have to wait for a scar to form, then healthy tissue grows below it, then eventually the scab falls off and we may get a scar. A fish can replace potions of their skin or fins in days and leave no scars.

We are now trying to duplicate their skin slime for help in burn victims. The outside of our skin has no antibodies, only tattoos, nose rings, belly button piercings etc.

 

[Paul B]

Here is an article I wrote on how to tell if a fish is dying of old age.

How to Tell if a Marine Fish Is Dying of Old Age

We aquarists try very hard to keep our animals alive as long as possible for a few reasons. The first is that we are caring people and don’t want to see them hurt. The second is that our spec…

www.saltwatersmarts.com