Don't Let Your Reference Solutions Run Out !!

[Dr. Jim]

I have to step-in and clear up the confusion.

IOND sensor does not just sit in "water". It sits in Ref B fluid at the end of each test. Why? Because this is how the probe is stored until the next scheduled test. The minimum testing interval is once per day. Extending that interval is being explored.

We have instructions and guideline for the product in hopes that users will follow them. You are free to experiment with your IOND and KHD sensors and run these extended tests yourself. If one wishes to go on their own and experiment to see what happens, that's on the user. Just know that we provided the instructions on the proper way to use the product and those guidelines were sidestepped.

When we spoke about your plan to turn OFF the IOND, I mentioned the PAB chain because if the IOND comes before any device in the chain and the IOND power is cut, the devices that follow will loose communication with the head unit; the communication chain is interrupted. Hence why I suggested placing the IOND at the end of the chain for your experiment.

As @Gaël mentioned, you'll also have the non-stop PAB alarm.

If you have the space, you could use two 3L containers and fill each up with Reference fluid. That will get you over 6 months of testing 1x/day.

Yes, I misspoke: I said the sensor "sits in water" but it sits in Ref B. My point was that it remains "wet" so one might think that it may not be necessary to run the test every day. Sorry for that confusion.

Vinny, please don't take this wrong.... I'm not trying to go against you or the instructions, but I just re-read the manual again and nowhere did I see it say that the IOND MUST be run every day. (Am I missing this somewhere?) Here is a statement that might come close to suggesting that (highlighted in red):

5.2 Prepare measurement
Before the initial measurement, the Measurement cell needs to be prepared. .......... After this step you have to wait 6 hours for the FIRST measurement; the sensor needs this time for stabilization to be able to deliver precise results. After that, measurements can be performed at any time.

***To me, this last statement certainly seems to imply just what it says, that "measurements can be performed at any time.

At any rate, I read nothing to make me think I could NOT wait a few days in between measurements, so I did wait, but I understand that you are suggesting it is not known if intervals will cause harm and I am certainly not suggesting that anybody try skipping days! But, I've decided to try running the IOND every 4-7 days while I'm away for 5 months for the following reasons:

1) The sensor may already be damaged since I'm still getting the negative values under "mv + data log" (which you mentioned are not normal) so I may have to buy a new sensor anyway; however, I am getting consistent and acceptable readings now that I discovered that "Emptying" and "Preparing" the cell seems to have corrected the problem.
2) I've already run the unit with 4-7 day intervals (before I was told "not to") and it appears to be working fine, This may suggest that it is OK to do so.
3) You told me that I already voided the warranty.
4) I will be away for 5 months and it may be impractical to set up enough Reference Solutions to last that long if I test daily.
5) The fact that the sensor sits in Ref B suggests that this would keep it from drying out, but of course I'm not sure if there are other factors that come into play when the unit isn't run every day.

Today, I am starting my "experiment" by skipping several days. I have a week or so to play with it before I have to leave my tank for 5 months.

I think a lot of people will be looking forward to GHL concluding whether it is safe to skip days between IOND measurements. I'll be the first guinea pig to try it!

 

[FishyFishFish]

How long has this been in development and testing? Would you not think that the possibility of someone not wanting to test every day would have been considered by GHL and tests run before it was released?

Saying to customers that ‘they are on their own’, by having them beta test something that really should have been done during development, is not ideal IMO.

 

[areefer01]

How long has this been in development and testing? Would you not think that the possibility of someone not wanting to test every day would have been considered by GHL and tests run before it was released?

Saying to customers that ‘they are on their own’, by having them beta test something that really should have been done during development, is not ideal IMO.

On the other hand why buy an automated test solution only wanting to have it test 1 day a week? Think about what you are asking for a minute.

This isn't unique to GHL as we saw similar questions with the Trident. The system has a design. Hobbyist need to stop fighting the system and use the product as it was intended. If that doesn't work for you then it isn't a product for you. Stop trying to force your requirement on the manufacture.

 

[FishyFishFish]

Lol.

That’s the tail wagging the dog. Manufacturers should produce their products to meet the demands of the user; it isn’t for the user to compromise to fit in with poorly designed/tested products. I’m not saying the IOND is poorly designed, but it seems clear to me that GHL don’t really know how long these probes are going to last.

In answer to the first question about why buy an automated tester to test once a week, the answer is because some customers want that option. If GHL said ‘a test must be run every day to prevent probe damage’ that is one thing, but they actually appear to be saying that they don’t know, which doesn’t say much for their development process. Surely that is a question that should have been anticipated sooner?

 

[areefer01]

Lol.

That’s the tail wagging the dog. Manufacturers should produce their products to meet the demands of the user; it isn’t for the user to compromise to fit in with poorly designed/tested products. I’m not saying the IOND is poorly designed, but it seems clear to me that GHL don’t really know how long these probes are going to last.

Not sure if it is wagging the dog or not (I don't believe so). But it is ok - I can be incorrect.

In answer to the first question about why buy an automated tester to test once a week, the answer is because some customers want that option. If GHL said ‘a test must be run every day to prevent probe damage’ that is one thing, but they actually appear to be saying that they don’t know, which doesn’t say much for their development process. Surely that is a question that should have been anticipated sooner?

I don't know the reason behind the answer or the design of the system. I am not a ION owner. But coming from another product that faced similar questions and/or complaints I don't agree with it. My recommendation would be for hobbyist who buy automated solutions to read up on it and see if it meets their needs. If they want 1 test per week but it does daily then clearly it isn't the solution for them.

/shrug - I'll have to bow out as I'm not an ION user. Was trying to show how it isn't unique to them and we have seen this with other products. Hope your day is going well.

 

[Dr. Jim]

. My recommendation would be for hobbyist who buy automated solutions to read up on it and see if it meets their needs. If they want 1 test per week but it does daily then clearly it isn't the solution for them.

I would have to say that it was impossible to "read up on it" before ordering the IOND, especially if it was ordered during the "Introductory Period." The manual wasn't available at that time so there was no way to know if it can be run once a week back then. Actually, I'm OK if it must be run daily, although I don't see the need to run them that frequently. But what is troubling me is the fact that I can't find anything written anywhere in the Manual about the necessity of running it daily. Maybe I missed that? Has anybody read that anywhere? (IF there is truly no warning in the manual telling us to be sure to run it daily, perhaps a user shouldn't be responsible for having to pay for a new sensor if it is damaged due to running it once a week??)

My guess is that it is OK to not run it daily since I've done that a few times already. I've gotten some whacky results a few times and some "yellow" and "red" bars with messages saying "replace sensor soon" or "sensor is bad".....but after "Emptying" the cell and "Preparing" it again, it seems to be fine. I'll play with it a little more before making any definite conclusion.....and again, obviously, I wouldn't recommend anybody do this until GHL says it is OK to do so.

 

[areefer01]

I would have to say that it was impossible to "read up on it" before ordering the IOND, especially if it was ordered during the "Introductory Period." The manual wasn't available at that time so there was no way to know if it can be run once a week back then.

Actually you raise something I didn't consider. Very good point. Apologies for not considering that.

Actually, I'm OK if it must be run daily, although I don't see the need to run them that frequently. But what is troubling me is the fact that I can't find anything written anywhere in the Manual about the necessity of running it daily. Maybe I missed that? Has anybody read that anywhere? (IF there is truly no warning in the manual telling us to be sure to run it daily, perhaps a user shouldn't be responsible for having to pay for a new sensor if it is damaged due to running it once a week??)

Devil's advocate and not to just poke a bear (not calling you a bear btw) - automation is all about seeing the data and trends. Isn't anything less than 1 per day sort of defeating the purpose of owing the equipment?

Please note that this could just be me and my reasons of owning automated solutions.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Isn't anything less than 1 per day sort of defeating the purpose of owing the equipment?

For me, I just want a simple way of checking Ca, Mg, K, and NO3. I don't see any reason to check those values more frequently than once a week. I have no plans to let the IOND control my dosing. For me, that is not necessary and too risky. Adjustments for Ca, Mg, and K don't need to be made very often, and especially not every day as might happen with the IOND controlling the dosages. Although instruments are very useful, I don't want to put that much trust in a "robot" to control my dosing amounts!

 

[Macca_75]

Slightly off topic, but sort of related.

IOND and KHD are both essentially just using "dosing heads".

If I am using dosing heads as dosing heads and monitor the container volume (not reference fluid, but say a Ca solution) if the container is considered "empty" does the dosing schedule STOP/PAUSE or does it continue to run and Does "air"?