Fish and Treatment Guidelines (with chart)

  1. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Its hard to say. This forum section is full of people who have tried hypo with no success. It is hard to quantify though, since we have no idea how many people have tried and succeeded since they are less likely to come back and post again. We also don't know if the people who did not have good results carried out the hypo correctly. Too many variables.
     
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  2. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Two strains have been discovered thus far:
    Source: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
     
  3. Dizzirn

    Dizzirn Well-Known Member

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    What is it?
     
  4. rich nyc

    rich nyc Well-Known Member

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    If you don't have enough dt tanks for tank transfer, is it ok to use copper for my flasher wrasses. I don't quite understand what a 2 means. Thanks
     
  5. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    I would recommend using a chelated copper product (e.g. Coppersafe, Copper Power) on a wrasse over ionic copper e.g. Cupramine.
     
  6. rich nyc

    rich nyc Well-Known Member

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    Ugh. Ok I have cupramine. Will I be able to still use my salifert test kit or do i need another one. Thanks, rich
     
  7. melypr1985

    melypr1985 totally addicted Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Expert Contributor Article Contributor

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    For coppersafe, you will need the API test kit.
     
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  8. ShaunRobinson

    ShaunRobinson Well-Known Member

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    Can I ask if anybody has heard of any issues regarding CP fairly soon after copper treatment? Has anybody run both courses?
     
  9. melypr1985

    melypr1985 totally addicted Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Expert Contributor Article Contributor

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    I have. Though there isn't much of a reason to do both except in extreme (and rare) cases. The most common of which would be that the fish being treated with copper aren't tolerating it well so an alternative method would be needed. Of course, if you have CP then why not just use that first? Except in cases where the fish are CP intolerant of course. lol
     
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  10. ShaunRobinson

    ShaunRobinson Well-Known Member

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    I agree, Cp would certainly be my first choice of treatment. I can't see any reason for using both treatments.

    The reason for asking is that I have read of a couple of guys treating with copper and then after removing the copper from the system a few days afterwards treating with CP. In both cases the fish have reacted badly to the CP.

    In my view there wasn't a long enough period between treatments? The fish will have already taken a knock with the copper before subjecting them to a further treatment. I am trying to ascertain whether there is any information on how cp may react with any residual copper left in the system?
     
  11. tastyfish

    tastyfish New Member

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    I believe there could be a few reasons behind this.

    Firstly, copper is a toxin, it's detrimental to both fish and parasite health and some fish tolerate it better than others. In any case, a recovery time needs to be implemented between courses of any medicine to clear both the tank and the fish's bodies of the medication, ensure they are feeding etc.

    Secondly, diagnosis. Copper is broad, and it's often better to use a wide ranging treatment like copper if the diagnosis is uncertain. But isn't a wonder treatment. There have been reported strains of Cryptocaryon and Oodinium Occelatum which appear hypo, CP or copper resistant. It could be that even if correctly identified, a resistant strain is present.

    Thirdly, ammonia - QT tanks typically have very immature filtration systems and ammonia build up and spikes are a big problem. These either directly affect the health of the fish and/or allow something else to take hold.

    Lastly (and I refer to treating with CP here as that's where my experience lies), treatment can often lead to bacterial infections taking hold. I have experienced this a couple of times and copper and chloroquine are of no help in this case. In my last full tank QT, I was forced to abandon CP on day 20 and quickly introduce an antibacterial treatment due to this taking hold.

    My preferred treatment is always CP, but there are times where another medication may be best applied
     
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  12. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Louisiana Reef Club Expert Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Good post. I wrote this specifically to address the scenario you described: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/the-bacterial-infection-predicament.315/
     
  13. rich nyc

    rich nyc Well-Known Member

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    Thanks so looking at this awesome chart, I guess if you were going to use copper, coppersafe would be the choice over cuperamine which is ironic because cupramine was the only kind of copper sold at my lfs.
     
  14. melypr1985

    melypr1985 totally addicted Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Expert Contributor Article Contributor

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    In my opinion coppersafe is the better product. HOWEVER, they are actually both good products that get the job done. They are just different types of copper and different fish will react differently with each. I find I have better results and less reactions to the coppersafe over the cupramine.
     
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  15. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Anecdotally, I’ve had less issue treating my wrasses in ionic copper/cupramine than chelated copper (I use coppersafe).

    I’m working on about 20 in each now, over the years. Small beans to some but enough to convince me.
     
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  16. Crashjack

    Crashjack Well-Known Member R2R Supporter

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    I wonder if the testing has something to do with it. The API test is almost worthless IMO. Hence, someone might over/under dose due to misreading the tests.
     
  17. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    I seem to lose halichoeres wrasse before copper reaches 2/3-3/4 therapeutic levels. I didn’t experience that with cupramine until I added prazi concurrently when I noticed flukes. It was therapeutic for days prior. Lots of oxygen I have powerhead pointed up, big HOB filter that splashes a lot, AND a bubbler. But we know wrasse are sensitive to both medications, and I knew it was a risk to mix them.

    Interestingly, but anecdotally, an established halichoeres did not seem to struggle in either copper at all. Did an old Melanarus, vroliks, and lime green that had been owned by me or another hobbyist for at least 6 months and went 3/3 successes. I’m probably 1/7 with halichoeres that are new shipment in chelated copper. I increase it over 5-7 days slowly and wait a few days before beginning dose until they’re eating.

    My leopards have all done fine in either except for my kuiteri male. But it may not have been copper that killed it. They’re fragile.
     

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