Fish immune to disease?

[WVNed]

Is disease or the lack of understanding for good general practices for keeping fish rampant.
I have come to believe it is the second.
Some fish do die from disease. But so do some people. That is true of all living things. It is a small percentage or they would be extinct.

How is putting a fish in my reef tank any different than ordering a box of 300 feeder guppies and putting them in my FW tank all at once.
I have done both many many times without them all dying.
Because I know how. I learned how over many years.

We have new parents bringing home fish and they cant tell the baby bed from the oven yet.

or aliens abduct a human and give it distilled water and sugar cubes to eat and pure oxygen to breath.
"He's dead Jim"
conditions were perfect
rampant disease

I have come to understand their are 2 kinds of people on here.
Ones like me that are trying to simulate an ocean environment and accept all the things that end up in the tank and deal with them. Their are no pests and parasites in my tank, Just things fish have to deal with and do successfully normal living.

There are also ones that want to keep marine fish and corals in a sterile environment like a tank full of GloFish with little glass beads and LED lit doodads. OMG, a worm or a bit of algae.

We are living in a time when hanging a bit of cloth or almost anything somewhere near your face is supposed to prevent disease. The government said so.

So I am not surprised.

 

[atoll]

Is disease or the lack of understanding for good general practices for keeping fish rampant.
I have come to believe it is the second.
Some fish do die from disease. But so do some people. That is true of all living things. It is a small percentage or they would be extinct.

How is putting a fish in my reef tank any different than ordering a box of 300 feeder guppies and putting them in my FW tank all at once.
I have done both many many times without them all dying.
Because I know how. I learned how over many years.

We have new parents bringing home fish and they cant tell the baby bed from the oven yet.

or aliens abduct a human and give it distilled water and sugar cubes to eat and pure oxygen to breath.
"He's dead Jim"
conditions were perfect
rampant disease

I have come to understand their are 2 kinds of people on here.
Ones like me that are trying to simulate an ocean environment and accept all the things that end up in the tank and deal with them. Their are no pests and parasites in my tank, Just things fish have to deal with and do successfully normal living.

There are also ones that want to keep marine fish and corals in a sterile environment like a tank full of GloFish with little glass beads and LED lit doodads. OMG, a worm or a bit of algae.

We are living in a time when hanging a bit of cloth or almost anything somewhere near your face is supposed to prevent disease. The government said so.

So I am not surprised.

 

[atoll]

Another fish bites the dust. QT and medicating. Maybe it would have died anyway then again maybe it was stress QT and the copper. However, it's far from an uncommon story. The guy posted it died in QT, shame.

 

[Lasse]

This is where fish develop a disease purely from exposure to the disease propagules themselves

I assume you mean "exposure to the pathogen themselves"

IMO - we do not understand the graph in the same way

IMO - H and P sole together can´t cause a disease - that's what the graph says for me. The environmental factor must be involved. However - the environmental factor can include the amount of the pathogen (or/and the virulence of the patogen) - as an example a dead fish can be the substrate for fast pathogen production. The amount of "attacker" will be to much for a some individuals defence system - hence more pathogens and so on. The E must be seen in a very broad sense in order to understand the graph. The E is booth biotic and abiotic factors that affect the host (and the pathogen)

With this approach - it is not difficult for me to understand that only P and E cant cause a disease - whom should they infect if there is no host available?. The same if the H and E is solely together - with no pathogen - no disease.

However - there is factors like virulence of the pathogen. the hosts susceptibility and the variation of the environmental factors can make the circles to be more or less centrated, hence increase or decrease the size of D

Maybe this figure give a better understanding for both of us

Source
​

Sincerely Lasse

​

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Question for @Jay Hemdal

I am sitting here stuck in the middle and haven't jumped on board with a side but I have a few key questions. I love feeding my fish live food whenever possible. If I were to throw in a live clam from a grocery store that was just slightly popped open, would I be reintroducing myself to ich, velvet, parasites, ect? If it was frozen (I can only feed so many live clams before they spoil and died) then are these parasites effectively killed?

I love these threads. I will continue to live in the middle and get as healthy of a diet to my fish as possible.

 

[Kershaw]

Ask yourself why only the new additions died.

My first guess would be stress. Which in turn can lower an immune system.

After doing a little more reading on parasites in developing country’s it appears that a human can develop resistance and immunity to some parasites. So I guess it’s possible for fish to do the same.
The articles I was finding on parasites in humans was way above my reading comprehension....

 

[atoll]

My first guess would be stress. Which in turn can lower an immune system.

Which is exactly what Paul and myself having been saying for sometime that putting a fish in QT is adding to the stress which we believe is not only unnecessary but damaging to the fish and its immune system weakening it further. Not only do we have that but on top people adding poisons to the equations in the form of unnecessary meds like copper. Is it any wonder so many fish die in QT or not long after introduction into the DT which adds even more stress. Of course we cant measure stress apart from visually but it's there with every new addition IMO it's the level and continuation of stress that weakens the fish and opens it up further to infection. A happy healthy fish is a stress free fish.

 

[Kershaw]

Which is exactly what Paul and myself having been saying for sometime that putting a fish in QT is adding to the stress which we believe is not only unnecessary but damaging to the fish and its immune system weakening it further. Not only do we have that but on top people adding poisons to the equations in the form of unnecessary meds like copper. Is it any wonder so many fish die in QT or not long after introduction into the DT which adds even more stress. Of course we cant measure stress apart from visually but it's there with every new addition IMO it's the level and continuation of stress that weakens the fish and opens it up further to infection. A happy healthy fish is a stress free fish.

I guess I can see both sides. I have never tried QT but I feel like I should. I just don’t see my self QT inverts and coral so there is really no point I suppose.

stress is a factor on health of most living creatures so it makes sense.

I am still confused on how a fish can be immune to something that attaches to the skin of fish. Maybe the slime coat?

 

[jx fang]

If I were to start a new tank now (God Forbid) after having made all the mistakes and even invented a few, I "think" I could do it better.

Do it Paul for God sake.
You are going to save billions of fish dying in quarantine.
You have all the time to write on the forum, but people still can't believe your success.
Start a new tank from zero, take picture every day show the world that zero fish will die from disease in your new tank.
You are going to save billions of fish in the future of the humanities.
I promise you, if you start a new tank, I will start one too.
Will follow as close as what you do with new the tank.
And I will report back every day with pictures about the tank progress.
Proof the world that zero fish will die from diseases in aquarium.
Deal?

But I can't breed black worms, will that break the system?

JX

 

[jx fang]

If we can get 50 or so tanks start at the same time.
And zero fish died from disease.
That's gonna change the world of saltwater aquarium keeping.
Anyone interested, get on board with Paul B.
Anyone?

Jx

 

[brandon429]

JX that is not true at all. You're posting in a forum where fifteen pages in a row are disease help needs, and what methods are garnering the highest % rates among the pages?


what do zoos use as an approach? do not forsake the total need for proofing due to one excellent reef, we want that replicated not just focused as one. awaiting replication threads.

 

[brandon429]

A decent way to test Paul and Atoll's approach for the masses, folks who can't keep the same reef for decades, would be using ocean cured live rock mailed home, that's a decent analog to Paul's fifty years and his constant sourcing of live ocean materials (close as we're going to get at least for res publica)

input non QT fish into tanks from KP aquatics or TBS or bay rock, see how disease fares. get us some thread diversity going....currently we can clearly see what methods are resourced at the top as stickies and how easy it is for non zoo running critics to name a best method. this is all coming from a guy with a goldfish bowl reef fwiw im one of the armchair critics too, but am pointing out a dire need for actual help on these first fifteen pages of disease posts, I don't see many folks actually logging fixes other than with qt and fallow.

*if we're ever going to get past fallow and qt/something better we simply need some work done in these help threads other than Jay even if it doesn't work. you can carve it into something that does work, but be active, be posting right in the help threads to create diversity in options. its crickets out there where the mud is

 

[atoll]

1/ I don't have a spare £5k to start a new tank like I have from scratch.
2/ My wife would leave me if I insisted on starting a new 100 plus gallon tank ....wait a minute ....
3/ I don't have space for such a tank
4/I am.not in the process of justification for my success.
5/ I believe it takes a new reef aquarium a minimum of a year before I consider it really mature and fully stocked quite possibly longer.

BTW. Most of my equipment was bought secondhand including my tank and even so I guess it cost me at least £5k that's UK pounds not dollars which would add up to around $6k

 

[jx fang]

I'm just tired of Paul posting a lot on the forum, but couldn't help a lot of people, including me.
What the point of posting a lot, and not help at all.
Do something useful to help people out.
I wish I can just drop a fish in the tank, and it will life forever.
All the post of Paul B over the years, only get a few people to be able to replicate his method, if there is any.
I want that too.
Instead I spent time to quarantine my fish more than 30 days, only observation and tread when needed.
I have 2 kids, I want spend more time with the kids, instead I spent time quarantine fish.
Although my boy will ask me, when can that fish go in the tank, it's been a while dad.

Jx

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

I'm just tired of Paul posting a lot on the forum, but couldn't help a lot of people, including me.
What the point of posting a lot, and not help at all.
Do something useful to help people out.
I wish I can just drop a fish in the tank, and it will life forever.
All the post of Paul B over the years, only get a few people to be able to replicate his method, if there is any.
I want that too.
Instead I spent time to quarantine my fish more than 30 days, only observation and tread when needed.
I have 2 kids, I want spend more time with the kids, instead I spent time quarantine fish.
Although my boy will ask me, when can that fish go in the tank, it's been a while dad.

Jx

I am calling you out for this absurd comment. Paul has done more for the hobby than anyone else on this forum. You are seriously going after a man in his early retirement for not stopping and setting up an identical tank? What would he do with all of his super models? Your request is absurd and rude.

 

[WVNed]

These are less than 2 years old. Why do I have to do it again? I have no reason to expect I couldn't.

I have 7 fish coming today. Prayers on standby.
Disease killed one of my lions recently. Smashed by rock disease caught from my urchin I think. I have a replacement coming today and 6 blue reef chromis. Then I think my tank will be full.

I don't need to prove anything to anyone. I just feel the way the hobby is going is a step back and not forward.
I cringe every time I see a sick fish in a sterile tank that looks like a picture of a moonscape.

 

[atoll]

I am calling you out for this absurd comment. Paul has done more for the hobby than anyone else on this forum. You are seriously going after a man in his early retirement for not stopping and setting up an identical tank? What would he do with all of his super models? Your request is absurd and rude.

And ridiculous.
I have set up maybe 10 tanks with my methods over many years (I am the same age as Paul) each with the same success. I have friends here in the UK who do similar who have stopped suffering fools and no longer post on forums due to abuse and or rudeness. They were happy to answer questions and even have their/our methods questioned but it got more personal etc. Who needs it who needs to justify what they do? I have reduced my posting on other forums because I am talking rubbish, lying or whatever. You see there is only one way to achieve success and that is to QT and or medicate and they poo poo any other way. Some people believe the only way to success is to spend money on QT and meds when the opposite is our way.

 

[brandon429]

I see an ongoing conflict in that Paul's and Atoll's aged and balanced systems can't be ignored

neither can the degree of help new posters are needing...the gap is that the aging/maturation and feeding methods aren't being tried in those threads enough to get a pattern, so this division remains between the master painter and folks wanting to learn the skill. Pauls and A's method has a very, very very low rate of replication ability but when it works it works wonderfully, that's how I see it.

we can't use fifty year old tanks as the procedural example for three year old ones, we need work in three year tanks to write about for 160 pages.

if we simply had more non qt non fallow proponents posting in work threads this hobby would benefit, we don't want to see 160 pages about the same tank. we want 160 pages of tanks in this forum fixed or being worked on.

that patterning is how to suppress qt and fallow approach and ensure success of the feeding/aging and maturation model.

 

[jx fang]

I am calling you out for this absurd comment. Paul has done more for the hobby than anyone else on this forum. You are seriously going after a man in his early retirement for not stopping and setting up an identical tank? What would he do with all of his super models? Your request is absurd and rude.

Look it this way, and stick to the immunity fish topic.
Paul has posting so many years on about immunity tank, but still doesn't help much people successful using his method.
Or at least not accepted as a repeatable method.
It's not going to change just posting like that another 50years.
Time to change, and make a difference.
There is a saying: You have to push someone to the wall, to make him do something great.
And I want to believe that Paul is going to change the saltwater aquarium keeping forever.
But Paul really have to something more about it.
Paul is going in the history book.

Jx

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Look it this way, and stick to the immunity fish topic.
Paul has posting so many years on about immunity tank, but still doesn't help much people successful using his method.
Or at least not accepted as a repeatable method.
It's not going to change just posting like that another 50years.
Time to change, and make a difference.
There is a saying: You have to push someone to the wall, to make him do something great.
And I want to believe that Paul is going to change the saltwater aquarium keeping forever.
But Paul really have to something more about it.
Paul is going in the history book.

Jx

Block me please. You are insufferable.