How to Quarantine

[VJV]

This is another question I have regarding copper treatment protocol. When I do water changes I only add back the copper once the change is complete. This means that for a couple of minutes the concentration drops to below therapeutic levels of 0,25mg/L. I figure that this should not be an issue. Am I wrong?

 

[VJV]

My rationale is based on the fact that even if I am extremely unlucky and Theronts manage to hatch during those minutes AND find a host, in 3-7 days they will drop off of the fish as become free swimming at which point they will be killed by the copper in the water.

 

[VJV]

Another thing that has been bugging me is that my current Quarantine protocol may be flawed. This is what I do:

1st day: treat for flukes with Tremazol (praziquantel)
7th day: repeat fluke treatment

14th day: start Cupramine for 4 weeks


The problem I am now seeing with this is that by allowing one week for Trophonts to drop of the fish and encyst, and taking into account that these may remain in the Tomont stage for up to 9 weeks in some cases, my 4weeks of Cupramine may actually be ineffective against ich.

Given the parasite lifecycle it would be most effective to start the treatment as soon as we get the fish into quarantine right? And even in this case, given Seachem recomends raising up to the therapeutical level over a period of 48h some could still survive and encyst...

I know I know, TTM....

 

[Humblefish]

This is another question I have regarding copper treatment protocol. When I do water changes I only add back the copper once the change is complete. This means that for a couple of minutes the concentration drops to below therapeutic levels of 0,25mg/L. I figure that this should not be an issue. Am I wrong?

You actually need to be mixing the copper up before you add water back to the QT when doing a WC. Mix it in a bucket before adding back, if need be. The Cu level should never drop below therapeutic levels at any time during the treatment period (30 days). Btw; the minimum therapeutic dosage for Cupramine is actually 0.35 mg/L. I was told that by Seachem themselves. Don't know why they still have 0.2 mg/L on their website.

Given the parasite lifecycle it would be most effective to start the treatment as soon as we get the fish into quarantine right? And even in this case, given Seachem recomends raising up to the therapeutical level over a period of 48h some could still survive and encyst...

It's always tricky trying to figure out whether to deworm or treat for parasites first. I typically treat for parasites and then deworm, unless I see obvious symptoms of flukes. My rational is most fish can live 4 weeks with flukes before succumbing to them and in a pinch you can always use prazi in conjunction with copper.

 

[VJV]

But why is that? If copper kills ich in the free swimming stage the only risk I run is if some Theronts manage to hatch and find a fish during those minutes right? And even than 3-7 days later they will drop off and free swim again so would be killed by the medicine right? I'm sorry for all the questions but I like to fully understand how things work.

 

[Humblefish]

But why is that? If copper kills ich in the free swimming stage the only risk I run is if some Theronts manage to hatch and find a fish during those minutes right? And even than 3-7 days later they will drop off and free swim again so would be killed by the medicine right? I'm sorry for all the questions but I like to fully understand how things work.

Let's say you buy a fish with ich (not always visible as trophonts can harbor inside the gills.) After 3-7 days (dependent upon strain), the trophonts will drop off the fish and encyst into tomonts (basically, ich eggs). It is important to remember that there is nothing you can do up to this point to eradicate ich. Trophonts bury under the fish's outer skin layer and tomonts encyst, so both are protected from chemical and osmotic shock treatment. However, once the tomonts rupture and release free swimming theronts into the water that is when chemical/hypo works it's magic, as that is the stage of the parasite that is most vulnerable.

Ich is invisible to the naked eye in all stage of it's life cycle. Even trophonts on the fish, as the white spots you are seeing are just "exit wounds" caused by excess mucous building up around the insertion points on the fish. So, you have no idea at what stage ich might be in your QT. It can take up to 72 days for all the theronts to be released from their tomonts, although <28 days is more the norm at reef temperatures. And theronts are not all released simultaneously, ich's life cycle is never entirely in sync. Probably a defense mechanism to ensure it's survival.

So, if copper were to drop below therapeutic levels - even for just a second - do you see what could potentially happen? A theront could make it's way onto a fish and ich's life cycle starts a new. I realize the odds are highly improbable but .....

 

[billw]

This may have been discussed before, but it sounds like the fish should be immediately removed from the treatment tank and placed into an ick free qt rather than keeping the fish in the same tank and removing the copper via waterchange etc. once the treatment period has ended.

 

[VJV]

Let's say you buy a fish with ich (not always visible as trophonts can harbor inside the gills.) After 3-7 days (dependent upon strain), the trophonts will drop off the fish and encyst into tomonts (basically, ich eggs). It is important to remember that there is nothing you can do up to this point to eradicate ich. Trophonts bury under the fish's outer skin layer and tomonts encyst, so both are protected from chemical and osmotic shock treatment. However, once the tomonts rupture and release free swimming theronts into the water that is when chemical/hypo works it's magic, as that is the stage of the parasite that is most vulnerable.

Ich is invisible to the naked eye in all stage of it's life cycle. Even trophonts on the fish, as the white spots you are seeing are just "exit wounds" caused by excess mucous building up around the insertion points on the fish. So, you have no idea at what stage ich might be in your QT. It can take up to 72 days for all the theronts to be released from their tomonts, although <28 days is more the norm at reef temperatures. And theronts are not all released simultaneously, ich's life cycle is never entirely in sync. Probably a defense mechanism to ensure it's survival.

So, if copper were to drop below therapeutic levels - even for just a second - do you see what could potentially happen? A theront could make it's way onto a fish and ich's life cycle starts a new. I realize the odds are highly improbable but .....

But that is precisely my point. Even if the fish were to be infected during those minutes, 3-7 days later the Trophonts would release from the fish and be killed by the copper.

 

[VJV]

This may have been discussed before, but it sounds like the fish should be immediately removed from the treatment tank and placed into an ick free qt rather than keeping the fish in the same tank and removing the copper via waterchange etc. once the treatment period has ended.

This would indeed be ideal.

 

[huskerreefatl]

The other component to it never dropping is that you want to mix and test the copper in the water before adding it to the qt to ensure that it matches rather than mixing in the qt. This way the level never drops and you don't risk over dosing the qt.

 

[VJV]

I use cupramine according to the bottle and mix water in a marked container (and I also have a marked tank) so I know exactly how many liters are going out and in each time. Never had any fluctuations of the levels.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Quick question for you guys.
Can I keep a qt always running even when all fish are out as long as I keep it at the right copper level ?

 

[VJV]

The problem would not be keeping the copper leave, it would be keeping the biological filter going without any fish. Also, you should always gradually raise the copper level up to the therapeutical level. Introducing a fish to a fully dosed tank will probably kill it if it is a sensitive type like an angel.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Ok thank you.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

.........

 

[VJV]

Np [emoji4]

 

[VJV]

Does anyone know if the Hanna Checker copper test works in saltwater? I find the existing ones from seachem and salifert impossible to read accuratly and therefore pretty useless. On the Seachem for instance the reference solution provided seems to be closer to 0,65 than the 0,50. And than there is the issue that 30sec after mixing reagents you have one colour, 10min another and 20min another still.

 

[omykiss001]

Does anyone know if the Hanna Checker copper test works in saltwater? I find the existing ones from seachem and salifert impossible to read accuratly and therefore pretty useless. On the Seachem for instance the reference solution provided seems to be closer to 0,65 than the 0,50. And than there is the issue that 30sec after mixing reagents you have one colour, 10min another and 20min another still.

No it doesn't'. I asked them too as I hate the test kits we have now reading shades of blue and brown it to speculative for me. I wish seachem would provide more of the standard as this is what I use until I get my tank to 0.5, then use it as I make up new water side by side, also comparing to the blue slider scale. I really wish Hanna would make one, assuming the chemistry is friendly to one.

 

[Humblefish]

This may have been discussed before, but it sounds like the fish should be immediately removed from the treatment tank and placed into an ick free qt rather than keeping the fish in the same tank and removing the copper via waterchange etc. once the treatment period has ended.

^^Yes, that would be optimal. Provided the two QTs are at least 10 feet apart.

 

[Humblefish]

But that is precisely my point. Even if the fish were to be infected during those minutes, 3-7 days later the Trophonts would release from the fish and be killed by the copper.

Technically you are correct, although I would wait 10 days from the last water change just to be on the safe side. And you don't ever want to lower the Cu level if doing it this way. You want to transfer the fish to a non-medicated HT for further observation.

And while yes, you are technically correct, I don't believe you are leaving yourself any margin for error doing it this way. I also wouldn't trust Cupramine's dosing instructions without confirming it with a test kit.