I must be doing something wrong but what?

[MeMyFishandI]

Hi,

I am afraid to re-stock my tank at this point. I've had no luck with it at all. I am clearly doing something wrong and I am going to lay it all out there, with the hopes that somebody could help me turn this around so it stops being a huge emotional pit of sadness. This is a long post, so thank you for bearing with me.

The hardware:
25g Innovative Marine Lagoon with original Mighty Jet pump. I run it with both socks. I have some bio balls living in one sock in case I need to jump start a cycle in my QT tank. I have a small bag of carbon sitting in the back. I run a IM NuvoSkim protein skimmer. I have a bubbler sitting next to the pump intake in the back. I also have a Current USA 6004 power head. It runs at 90% with a bit of the flow breaking the surface tension.

Lights:
I have the Current USA Led IC Loop lights. They are on from 0900-2030. Daytime is R75 G29 B100 W65 and night times are R75 G09 B75 W65. I do not run moon lights. I have no idea what the PAR is.

Chemistry:
Kh 7
Calcium 400
Phosphate 0.25
Ph 8
Nitritre 0
Nitrate - test ran out so I have to get a new one
Ammonia 0
Magnesium off the chart high
Temp 78
Salinity 1.025

Livestock Current:
1 Yellow Watchman Goby
1 Red Legged Hermit Crab
1 Blue Legged Hermit Crab
3ish Astrea snails
Zoas:
Blood Suckers
Rastas
Blue Hornets
Pinwheels
some unknown one
Nirvana
2 Green hairy mushroom
2 brown hairy mushroom
2 hammer
some unknown palys
bullseye mushroom
a jar full of green mushroom frags that are grounded until they attach them selves to some sand so I can put them on frag plugs and re-home them but they are being jerks about it.
clove polyps

For the most part all the corals are small colonies.

There are also bristle worms and spaghetti worms in the tank. Under the nirvanas I noticed last week were some small bubble algae growths and I will be removing those this weekend.

Maintenance:

Week 1:
Clean glass, stir sand, tidy up (like empty the skimmer) and fuss with stuff (like scrub the skimmer).

Week 2:
Clean glass, stir sand, tidy up and do 20% water change. I use RODI water. I use instant ocean reef crystals.

I don't have a TDS meter for my RODI system, COVID is making getting equipment difficult to get (for a reasonable price) in Canada.


Food:
1/4 a frozen mysis cube a day and reef roids, as per the directions, every fourth day.


History of the Tank:
I set this tank up in February and it took until April to complete the cycle. I had at the time a 10 gallon system that I had been running for a year without any issues.

When I put my fish from the 10g in to the 25g is when all the issues began. My Bengaii Cardinal died the next day. My Shark Nose Goby passed the day after. It hurt, he was a family favourite. He would dance for us when we approached the tank.

In July I got a Yellow Watchman Goby, an Orchid Dottyback, and a Sapphire Damsel. They came from the LFS in hypo salinity and had to be slowly acclimated over five days. I also a few weeks later got a Kenya Tree, most of the zoas and a Pom Pom Xenia. In August I got a peppermint shrimp.

The dotty back disappeared, sometime at the end of August, after two months of being in the tank. The damsel started with a spot on his head, which looked like a scratch, I treated it with melafix and it was looking better. A month or so after that treatment it started hiding and breathing rapidly but showed no other visible symptoms. It lasted a week before it died, two and a half months after being put in the 25g. The Kenya tree, zoas and Xenia did exceptionally well in the QT tank. There was some aptasia so they were in there longer than usual. That is when I got the peppermint shrimp who made quick work of that. The Kenya tree disintegrated within a week of being put in the 25g. The Pom Pom slowly shrunk, it was starting to grow again but I bumped it's rock while doing a water change one day and it did not like that. The next day it was gone, about a month after being put in the 25g. The peppermint shrimp passed away this morning, after three months of being put in the 25g. The yellow watchman goby is the only one still alive and I have to say, I am worried given the track record I currently have.

I am looking for any ideas as to what I can change to make life better for my creatures. At this point I am not going to get any more livestock until I understand what needs adjusting and have it adjusted.

Thanks in advance. As always, I appreciate all the advice that this forum had provided. One day, I hope I'll have enough experience under my belt to help other out here too.

-m

 

[jda]

Anybody could nit pick, but you likely just need more time. Tanks under a year are hard. Smaller tanks are hard. I would just give it more time.

If you want to do something, get some live rock from TBS, KP or somewhere to help with some biodiversity.

 

[Flippers4pups]

This^. As far as the RO/DI unit, what make is it and how many stages? Was the unit new?

 

[dadnjesse]

Anybody could nit pick, but you likely just need more time. Tanks under a year are hard. Smaller tanks are hard. I would just give it more time.

If you want to do something, get some live rock from TBS, KP or somewhere to help with some biodiversity.

 

[MeMyFishandI]

Anybody could nit pick, but you likely just need more time. Tanks under a year are hard. Smaller tanks are hard. I would just give it more time.

If you want to do something, get some live rock from TBS, KP or somewhere to help with some biodiversity.

I have live rock in there already. Lots of copepods that need to be eaten up. I just don't understand why I did so much better with a much smaller tank than with the larger one.

 

[MeMyFishandI]

This^. As far as the RO/DI unit, what make is it and how many stages? Was the unit new?

The unit was new. I set it up in April. It has maybe produced 90 gallons of water. It is a Coral Life RO Buddie + DI.

 

[Garf]

The unit was new. I set it up in April. It has maybe produced 90 gallons of water. It is a Coral Life RO Buddie + DI.

Is your newly made up water “Off the chart high” for magnesium, like the tank?

 

[Halal Hotdog]

A few things jumping out at me. I find small tanks a lot harder to keep stable than big tanks, having wild swings is not uncommon. Testing nitrates is pretty important in a small tank, just a little bit of food and it can skyrocket. Phosphates are a bit high, but should not be causing any of your issues. Even though you are not adding a ton of stuff at once, for a small tank even a few additions can cause an ammonia spike. One nice thing, doing a 100% water change is 4 buckets of water. If you did not mention the corals melting then I would lean towards a parasite for the fish deaths. The fact the corals are melting so quickly would make me believe you either have a pollutant or ammonia in your system. Ammonia badges are inexpensive and helpful to have around. May want to throw one in there to see if you are having swings.

 

[SMSREEF]

The tank looks like a great setup.

The only things I can think of is maybe the water or fish disease.

You could do a triton ICP test which will test your RODI and your tank water.

The other thing is when you set up the new tank, if you got live rock or coral from a LFS and did not house it without fish for a while, maybe ICH or another parasite came in as a trophont on the rock or frag plug.

 

[slojim]

I owned an all-in-one type set up once, and it doesn't seem to me to be as forgiving of larger loads. And it seems like you have a fairly large load for what is a fairly new system. I don't know how much of that you brought over from the 10g, but it wouldn't all fit. I think perhaps you've just gone too fast.
How do you get your ammonia reading? For new tanks or QT tanks - I favor the seachem badge, since I can check it at a glance, instead of pulling out a test kit and 20 minutes later seeing a result. They are reasonably priced, and reasonably accurate. Still - things look healthy in your pictures, so maybe not ammonia.
If I look at your timeline - it appears you are using an exceptionally short quarantine period. Not everyone QT's, I didn't for a long time, but if you are going to do it, you might a well do it for long enough to be effective. That's probably at least 4 weeks for an observational QT.
How well did you match the temperature and salinity of the 2 tanks before you transferred fish?
Good luck.

 

[MidlifeCrifish]

How often are you running the skimmer?

 

[MnFish1]

Hi,

I am afraid to re-stock my tank at this point. I've had no luck with it at all. I am clearly doing something wrong and I am going to lay it all out there, with the hopes that somebody could help me turn this around so it stops being a huge emotional pit of sadness. This is a long post, so thank you for bearing with me.

The hardware:
25g Innovative Marine Lagoon with original Mighty Jet pump. I run it with both socks. I have some bio balls living in one sock in case I need to jump start a cycle in my QT tank. I have a small bag of carbon sitting in the back. I run a IM NuvoSkim protein skimmer. I have a bubbler sitting next to the pump intake in the back. I also have a Current USA 6004 power head. It runs at 90% with a bit of the flow breaking the surface tension.

Lights:
I have the Current USA Led IC Loop lights. They are on from 0900-2030. Daytime is R75 G29 B100 W65 and night times are R75 G09 B75 W65. I do not run moon lights. I have no idea what the PAR is.

Chemistry:
Kh 7
Calcium 400
Phosphate 0.25
Ph 8
Nitritre 0
Nitrate - test ran out so I have to get a new one
Ammonia 0
Magnesium off the chart high
Temp 78
Salinity 1.025

Livestock Current:
1 Yellow Watchman Goby
1 Red Legged Hermit Crab
1 Blue Legged Hermit Crab
3ish Astrea snails
Zoas:
Blood Suckers
Rastas
Blue Hornets
Pinwheels
some unknown one
Nirvana
2 Green hairy mushroom
2 brown hairy mushroom
2 hammer
some unknown palys
bullseye mushroom
a jar full of green mushroom frags that are grounded until they attach them selves to some sand so I can put them on frag plugs and re-home them but they are being jerks about it.
clove polyps

For the most part all the corals are small colonies.

There are also bristle worms and spaghetti worms in the tank. Under the nirvanas I noticed last week were some small bubble algae growths and I will be removing those this weekend.

Maintenance:

Week 1:
Clean glass, stir sand, tidy up (like empty the skimmer) and fuss with stuff (like scrub the skimmer).

Week 2:
Clean glass, stir sand, tidy up and do 20% water change. I use RODI water. I use instant ocean reef crystals.

I don't have a TDS meter for my RODI system, COVID is making getting equipment difficult to get (for a reasonable price) in Canada.


Food:
1/4 a frozen mysis cube a day and reef roids, as per the directions, every fourth day.


History of the Tank:
I set this tank up in February and it took until April to complete the cycle. I had at the time a 10 gallon system that I had been running for a year without any issues.

When I put my fish from the 10g in to the 25g is when all the issues began. My Bengaii Cardinal died the next day. My Shark Nose Goby passed the day after. It hurt, he was a family favourite. He would dance for us when we approached the tank.

In July I got a Yellow Watchman Goby, an Orchid Dottyback, and a Sapphire Damsel. They came from the LFS in hypo salinity and had to be slowly acclimated over five days. I also a few weeks later got a Kenya Tree, most of the zoas and a Pom Pom Xenia. In August I got a peppermint shrimp.

The dotty back disappeared, sometime at the end of August, after two months of being in the tank. The damsel started with a spot on his head, which looked like a scratch, I treated it with melafix and it was looking better. A month or so after that treatment it started hiding and breathing rapidly but showed no other visible symptoms. It lasted a week before it died, two and a half months after being put in the 25g. The Kenya tree, zoas and Xenia did exceptionally well in the QT tank. There was some aptasia so they were in there longer than usual. That is when I got the peppermint shrimp who made quick work of that. The Kenya tree disintegrated within a week of being put in the 25g. The Pom Pom slowly shrunk, it was starting to grow again but I bumped it's rock while doing a water change one day and it did not like that. The next day it was gone, about a month after being put in the 25g. The peppermint shrimp passed away this morning, after three months of being put in the 25g. The yellow watchman goby is the only one still alive and I have to say, I am worried given the track record I currently have.

I am looking for any ideas as to what I can change to make life better for my creatures. At this point I am not going to get any more livestock until I understand what needs adjusting and have it adjusted.

Thanks in advance. As always, I appreciate all the advice that this forum had provided. One day, I hope I'll have enough experience under my belt to help other out here too.

-m

I didnt read the rest of the replies - BUT - I can think of a couple things:

1. The fish were exposed to a disease in the new tank - that hitchhiked on something else - or they were carrying the disease - but had no symptoms (i.e. the cardinal, and the other one) - when they got put in the new tank - the stress caused the disease. (This would seem to be really quick for this)., This could explain why subsequent fish also died?
2. Your cycle was not complete when you transferred the first 2 fish - and the was an ammonia issue.
3. you have lost a couple fish (or at least the dotty back) that you cant find - could you have had an ammonia spike from that that damaged your corals - started a 'downward cycle' - hurting your leathers - and also when the leather are 'sick' or 'dying' - they can release toxins that can hurt the rest.

It could be 100 things - BUT - when coral and fish are not doing well - its usually IME - a toxin problem of some sort - oxygen, chloramine (that got through your RODI), ammonia - or something else (a metal - but I think that would be rare) - etc etc - The fish and the coral deaths could also be unrelated - i.e. the fish died of disease - and the coral are warring with each other. BTW - your tank looks nice. Hope this helps some - PS - Nitrates can be important - especially with the dead fish - and you have a lot of biomass in your tank - which is kind of new (though I'm not a big believer in the 'wait 6 months to do xxx'

Sarcophyton Leather Corals: Attractive, Toxic, and Tough as Nails | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

When it comes to hardiness, ease of care, and general adaptability, few corals can compare to those of the genus Sarcophyton—the so-called toadstool, or mushroom, leather corals. Despite their lack of…

reefbuilders.com

 

[MeMyFishandI]

Is your newly made up water “Off the chart high” for magnesium, like the tank?

I just checked the RO/DI water and it was 0 and for fun, I checked the regular tap water and it was also 0.

 

[MeMyFishandI]

How often are you running the skimmer?

All day, everyday.

 

[MnFish1]

BTW - what was your magnesium? are you sure you're doing the test correctly? MG is not usually a problem the only way you can really get it high - is a bad salt mix - a test error - or a dosing error.

 

[HaveFishWillTravel]

Hi,

I am afraid to re-stock my tank at this point. I've had no luck with it at all. I am clearly doing something wrong and I am going to lay it all out there, with the hopes that somebody could help me turn this around so it stops being a huge emotional pit of sadness. This is a long post, so thank you for bearing with me.

The hardware:
25g Innovative Marine Lagoon with original Mighty Jet pump. I run it with both socks. I have some bio balls living in one sock in case I need to jump start a cycle in my QT tank. I have a small bag of carbon sitting in the back. I run a IM NuvoSkim protein skimmer. I have a bubbler sitting next to the pump intake in the back. I also have a Current USA 6004 power head. It runs at 90% with a bit of the flow breaking the surface tension.

Lights:
I have the Current USA Led IC Loop lights. They are on from 0900-2030. Daytime is R75 G29 B100 W65 and night times are R75 G09 B75 W65. I do not run moon lights. I have no idea what the PAR is.

Chemistry:
Kh 7
Calcium 400
Phosphate 0.25
Ph 8
Nitritre 0
Nitrate - test ran out so I have to get a new one
Ammonia 0
Magnesium off the chart high
Temp 78
Salinity 1.025

Livestock Current:
1 Yellow Watchman Goby
1 Red Legged Hermit Crab
1 Blue Legged Hermit Crab
3ish Astrea snails
Zoas:
Blood Suckers
Rastas
Blue Hornets
Pinwheels
some unknown one
Nirvana
2 Green hairy mushroom
2 brown hairy mushroom
2 hammer
some unknown palys
bullseye mushroom
a jar full of green mushroom frags that are grounded until they attach them selves to some sand so I can put them on frag plugs and re-home them but they are being jerks about it.
clove polyps

For the most part all the corals are small colonies.

There are also bristle worms and spaghetti worms in the tank. Under the nirvanas I noticed last week were some small bubble algae growths and I will be removing those this weekend.

Maintenance:

Week 1:
Clean glass, stir sand, tidy up (like empty the skimmer) and fuss with stuff (like scrub the skimmer).

Week 2:
Clean glass, stir sand, tidy up and do 20% water change. I use RODI water. I use instant ocean reef crystals.

I don't have a TDS meter for my RODI system, COVID is making getting equipment difficult to get (for a reasonable price) in Canada.


Food:
1/4 a frozen mysis cube a day and reef roids, as per the directions, every fourth day.


History of the Tank:
I set this tank up in February and it took until April to complete the cycle. I had at the time a 10 gallon system that I had been running for a year without any issues.

When I put my fish from the 10g in to the 25g is when all the issues began. My Bengaii Cardinal died the next day. My Shark Nose Goby passed the day after. It hurt, he was a family favourite. He would dance for us when we approached the tank.

In July I got a Yellow Watchman Goby, an Orchid Dottyback, and a Sapphire Damsel. They came from the LFS in hypo salinity and had to be slowly acclimated over five days. I also a few weeks later got a Kenya Tree, most of the zoas and a Pom Pom Xenia. In August I got a peppermint shrimp.

The dotty back disappeared, sometime at the end of August, after two months of being in the tank. The damsel started with a spot on his head, which looked like a scratch, I treated it with melafix and it was looking better. A month or so after that treatment it started hiding and breathing rapidly but showed no other visible symptoms. It lasted a week before it died, two and a half months after being put in the 25g. The Kenya tree, zoas and Xenia did exceptionally well in the QT tank. There was some aptasia so they were in there longer than usual. That is when I got the peppermint shrimp who made quick work of that. The Kenya tree disintegrated within a week of being put in the 25g. The Pom Pom slowly shrunk, it was starting to grow again but I bumped it's rock while doing a water change one day and it did not like that. The next day it was gone, about a month after being put in the 25g. The peppermint shrimp passed away this morning, after three months of being put in the 25g. The yellow watchman goby is the only one still alive and I have to say, I am worried given the track record I currently have.

I am looking for any ideas as to what I can change to make life better for my creatures. At this point I am not going to get any more livestock until I understand what needs adjusting and have it adjusted.

Thanks in advance. As always, I appreciate all the advice that this forum had provided. One day, I hope I'll have enough experience under my belt to help other out here too.

-m

Hi there, I am not familiar with your equipment. I am familiar with your issues. i had a 20 gallon tank for 3+ years with 2 clownfish and a Damsel. I used to feed them a cube of Mysis shrimp per day and what it did was...you know those “few bristle worms” you say you have? You probably have hundreds of them, you just haven’t seen them come out at night. When they do, you will be shocked. You may be over feeding and if so, your bristle worms are benefiting from it. Your Nitrates are no doubt too high. IMHO, Nitrates in a tank that size shouldn’t be any higher than 5ppm. a 25 gallon tank is so easy to clean and flip out the water. I don’t mean to sound harsh, I was there not so long ago. I had to trash the entire tank because of the worms. I bought a new, bigger tank. Now, I have different, bigger problems. If I were you, I would clean up the tank (scrub the inside of the glass and the tank walls) and start doing weekly 20% water changes. Clean your socks and protein Skimmer at least twice if not three times per week. Start feeding max 4X per week but only feed less than 1/8 to 1/4 of the cube of Mysis shrimp. Give yourself time to turn off the pumps before you feed and watch what happens. Look at who eats what and where the food goes. If possible, get any uneaten food out of there before your pumps come back on. Do this for awhile until you understand your animals behavior. Do a search on each one of your fishes/animals specifically the known causes for stress and death. Start going through a process of elimination with your tank. What you do, what you don’t do. I think you are making the right start by asking the question. You care and that’s the most important thing of all. Reef aquariums are difficult. Some people make it look so easy, but I have cried and been so frustrated so many times. It takes time, patience and observation. You’ll get there. Best of luck to you and all your little guys ;-) JL

 

[evoIX_njreefer]

Quick observations based on a few things that caught my eye.

Not much water agitation. Your water surface looks like it has buildup from not enough water surface movement.

Alk directly at 7 is not a major issue but it is a fine line and what test kit are you using?

How are you testing pH? Suprised it would be 8 with very little water movement and gas exchange.

Your lights are from what I have read terrible. On a budget? Get a used AI Prime 16hd or NOOPSYCHE.

Either a get good test kits and test daily for a week and report back. Test SG with a refractometer and ensure its calibrated.

How often are you doing water changes?

I dont suspect TDS above zero just yet but should be coming up soon. Usually 6 months or sooner if you have high IN TDS.

Like the guy above mentioned, get one of those cheap ammonia badges. Main random fish killer if no other apparent signs of diseases/parasites.

 

[MeMyFishandI]

A few things jumping out at me. I find small tanks a lot harder to keep stable than big tanks, having wild swings is not uncommon. Testing nitrates is pretty important in a small tank, just a little bit of food and it can skyrocket. Phosphates are a bit high, but should not be causing any of your issues. Even though you are not adding a ton of stuff at once, for a small tank even a few additions can cause an ammonia spike. One nice thing, doing a 100% water change is 4 buckets of water. If you did not mention the corals melting then I would lean towards a parasite for the fish deaths. The fact the corals are melting so quickly would make me believe you either have a pollutant or ammonia in your system. Ammonia badges are inexpensive and helpful to have around. May want to throw one in there to see if you are having swings.

I'll get an ammonia badge just to be sure. Having said that I do check the water chemistry fairly regularly.

 

[MeMyFishandI]

The tank looks like a great setup.

The only things I can think of is maybe the water or fish disease.

You could do a triton ICP test which will test your RODI and your tank water.

The other thing is when you set up the new tank, if you got live rock or coral from a LFS and did not house it without fish for a while, maybe ICH or another parasite came in as a trophont on the rock or frag plug.

Thank you.

I didn't see any signs of ich, and I don't believe that all the fish but the YWG would get it.

 

[MeMyFishandI]

I owned an all-in-one type set up once, and it doesn't seem to me to be as forgiving of larger loads. And it seems like you have a fairly large load for what is a fairly new system. I don't know how much of that you brought over from the 10g, but it wouldn't all fit. I think perhaps you've just gone too fast.
How do you get your ammonia reading? For new tanks or QT tanks - I favor the seachem badge, since I can check it at a glance, instead of pulling out a test kit and 20 minutes later seeing a result. They are reasonably priced, and reasonably accurate. Still - things look healthy in your pictures, so maybe not ammonia.
If I look at your timeline - it appears you are using an exceptionally short quarantine period. Not everyone QT's, I didn't for a long time, but if you are going to do it, you might a well do it for long enough to be effective. That's probably at least 4 weeks for an observational QT.
How well did you match the temperature and salinity of the 2 tanks before you transferred fish?
Good luck.

I use an API test. I know they're not great but I can't bring myself to toss something until it is used up or completely proves itself useless.

I will get a badge. I matched everything I possibly could from QT to the main tank. Same with when I moved the fish from the 10g to the 25g. I can't remember exactly how long I QT'd the fish, I think two weeks, and the corals were closer to a month due to aptasia and delays in getting the shrimp.