Input for experimental Non Live Rock

[Sasquatch]

I was doing work today, menial and mentally non challenging and as sometimes happens my thoughts drifted, after filtering out the **** I was left with the idea today of pseudo rocks?
Not your run of the mill cured in the toilet concrete and pasta specials but something else.
Live rock is "supposed" to filter water and provide both biological conversion of waste to nitrate but also to convert nitrate to some form of non nutritious stuff that dosen't feed algae, my understanding of this is tiny water passages in the rock where denitrification takes place, I assume this to be an anerobic situation? SO My thought was the lowly sponge media that we use for mechanical filtration, its a detritus trap and a muck magnet, pods seem to absolutely love living in it so what if you created a thin ceramic rock like shell and glazed it to prevent leaching then stuffed it with open cell foam? Any thoughts on this?
I have the facilities to produce some but would it work?

 

[nixer]

id say no, but i would try angelhair pasta in my rock if i were to make it

 

[BlazinNano]

First off I would not glaze it. Ceramic does not leach IMO. I have made ceramic rocks for my tank and freinds tank. They have never cause a problem. As for thin you have to be carefull. It breaks. The thinnest I have ever been able to make frag disk and not break them is the thickness of cardboard. I have tried thinner but the just crumble in the kiln. And even at cardboard thickness they can be broken in half with just your fingers (makes fragging so easy).

So are you trying to create a ceramic sponge or a ceramic sponge case?

 

[Sasquatch]

First off I would not glaze it. Ceramic does not leach IMO. I have made ceramic rocks for my tank and freinds tank. They have never cause a problem. As for thin you have to be carefull. It breaks. The thinnest I have ever been able to make frag disk and not break them is the thickness of cardboard. I have tried thinner but the just crumble in the kiln. And even at cardboard thickness they can be broken in half with just your fingers (makes fragging so easy).

So are you trying to create a ceramic sponge or a ceramic sponge case?

sponge case square pants? hmmm lol thats the thought, Ive cast ceramics for years and its the firing temp that determines hardness, it would need to be a good thickness anyway to weight down the foam?
Ceramic is porous, this causes weakness to set in, glazing is to waterproof the piece really

 

[Sasquatch]

id say no, but i would try angelhair pasta in my rock if i were to make it

sorry, the pasta was a sarcastic remark and not thought of as anything other than an edible

 

[skinz78]

Wouldn't you need to clean the sponge every so often?

 

[Sasquatch]

Wouldn't you need to clean the sponge every so often?

why?

 

[skinz78]

Isn't it like not changing your underwear?:neutral:

 

[BlazinNano]

Sponges are nasty to have in the tank. They need to be cleaned every week. I will not use sponges or filter socks. They are just nitrates collectors. Melev came to one of our meetings last year right before MACNA. He talked about sumps and filter socks. He said he does not use filter socks. If I remember right he said if you are going to use them then they need to be changed every day or every other day. Not sure which one it was. Like Skinz said it is like not changing your underwear. All the junk from the tank is gonna build up in the sponge and just rot away. I would stay away from the sponge idea. But that is me.

 

[skinz78]

Honestly I think the sponge and sock arguement is more along the lines of forcing water through them in the sump, what Steve has suggested is to have the sponge as sort of a refuge for bacteria and not for forced detritus filtration.

So IMHO I really don't think it would be a detritus trap in this application but more of a de-nitrification station that is quite possibly more effective than live rock itself.

 

[Sasquatch]

ahh Thanks Skinz's thats my thought exactly, sponges are nasty in filtration/forced use but used as a static device? just read Simac's article on live rock denitrification, was pretty interesting here

 

[Sasquatch]

Sponges are nasty to have in the tank. They need to be cleaned every week. I will not use sponges or filter socks. They are just nitrates collectors. Melev came to one of our meetings last year right before MACNA. He talked about sumps and filter socks. He said he does not use filter socks. If I remember right he said if you are going to use them then they need to be changed every day or every other day. Not sure which one it was. Like Skinz said it is like not changing your underwear. All the junk from the tank is gonna build up in the sponge and just rot away. I would stay away from the sponge idea. But that is me.

I have never worn underwear and don't plan on starting soon, sump socks must be changed every 3 days or suffer the consequences lol

 

[Jcr's Reef]

How would water flow through it? Is this going to be suspended off of the sand or tank bottom so detritus doesn't accumulate? As for the sponge, I think it would work once life establishes itself on it and has worms and amphipods crawling through it. It would really be no different than life rock. Water just has to have a way to flow through it IMO.

 

[Sasquatch]

How would water flow through it? Is this going to be suspended off of the sand or tank bottom so detritus doesn't accumulate? As for the sponge, I think it would work once life establishes itself on it and has worms and amphipods crawling through it. It would really be no different than life rock. Water just has to have a way to flow through it IMO.

you have just described the current theory on how live rock denitrifies, I don't see why this couldn't be used the same way as real rock, the amount of openings in the case would limit detritus and the sponge being open cell would have good connectivity opening to opening

 

[Troylee]

there was a great discussion awhile back about ceramic leaching po4 and from my exp with frag plugs i would say it's true..... im sure you have all seen that your frag plugs get covered in algae but the stuff around it is spotless.... if you were to play with this experiment i would seal it but i don't even know if that would work for sure.... i would avoid a sponge at all cost myself..... fwiw i don't even like lr. it becomes a detrius trap no matter what they say.... my frag tank runs with zero sand and zero rock with no ill effects.... the plastic and plugs etc is enough surface area for bacteria to colonize....

 

[BlazinNano]

Sponges are nasty to have in the tank. They need to be cleaned every week. I will not use sponges or filter socks. They are just nitrates collectors. Melev came to one of our meetings last year right before MACNA. He talked about sumps and filter socks. He said he does not use filter socks. If I remember right he said if you are going to use them then they need to be changed every day or every other day. Not sure which one it was. Like Skinz said it is like not changing your underwear. All the junk from the tank is gonna build up in the sponge and just rot away. I would stay away from the sponge idea. But that is me.

there was a great discussion awhile back about ceramic leaching po4 and from my exp with frag plugs i would say it's true..... im sure you have all seen that your frag plugs get covered in algae but the stuff around it is spotless.... if you were to play with this experiment i would seal it but i don't even know if that would work for sure.... i would avoid a sponge at all cost myself..... fwiw i don't even like lr. it becomes a detrius trap no matter what they say.... my frag tank runs with zero sand and zero rock with no ill effects.... the plastic and plugs etc is enough surface area for bacteria to colonize....

As for ceramic leaching PO4 is depends what kind of ceramic you are using. There are many different types. My parents own a ceramic company so I have access to a lot of different brands and styles of ceramic. The type I use is actually 85% aluminum oxide AKA phosphate removed. I have looked through different sites for research on it. I went to the seachem site who sells aluminum oxide phosphate removed. They have a whole study up about aluminum in aquariums. They completely overdosed a tank with aluminum oxide and there where no ill effects at all. I only use my disk in my tank. I have never had hair algae grow on them or even red slime. I have had other plugs from other people in the same tank and they will grow algae. I also bake everything at over 1600 degrees for at least 6 hours. They are cooked completely.

 

[Jcr's Reef]

you have just described the current theory on how live rock denitrifies, I don't see why this couldn't be used the same way as real rock, the amount of openings in the case would limit detritus and the sponge being open cell would have good connectivity opening to opening

I'm agreeing with you all the way Sasquatch. Kind of why I stated that because some are against sponges in their tank when in fact, it pretty much does the same job as LR. My question for you is how are you going to make it porous? or is ceramic naturally porous "enough" to do the above process?

 

[Sasquatch]

As for ceramic leaching PO4 is depends what kind of ceramic you are using. There are many different types. My parents own a ceramic company so I have access to a lot of different brands and styles of ceramic. The type I use is actually 85% aluminum oxide AKA phosphate removed. I have looked through different sites for research on it. I went to the seachem site who sells aluminum oxide phosphate removed. They have a whole study up about aluminum in aquariums. They completely overdosed a tank with aluminum oxide and there where no ill effects at all. I only use my disk in my tank. I have never had hair algae grow on them or even red slime. I have had other plugs from other people in the same tank and they will grow algae. I also bake everything at over 1600 degrees for at least 6 hours. They are cooked completely.

yes there are many recipes for casting slip and whats left after a firing is a good guess, I would glaze any pieces inside and out

 

[Sasquatch]

I'm agreeing with you all the way Sasquatch. Kind of why I stated that because some are against sponges in their tank when in fact, it pretty much does the same job as LR. My question for you is how are you going to make it porous? or is ceramic naturally porous "enough" to do the above process?

The ceramic rock would be hollow and stuffed with sponge or the really thick filter media thats like scotch brite pads, so holes in the casting would be just like a real piece of rock? maybe a bigger one at the bottom for stuffing

 

[Sasquatch]

there was a great discussion awhile back about ceramic leaching po4 and from my exp with frag plugs i would say it's true..... im sure you have all seen that your frag plugs get covered in algae but the stuff around it is spotless.... if you were to play with this experiment i would seal it but i don't even know if that would work for sure.... i would avoid a sponge at all cost myself..... fwiw i don't even like lr. it becomes a detrius trap no matter what they say.... my frag tank runs with zero sand and zero rock with no ill effects.... the plastic and plugs etc is enough surface area for bacteria to colonize....

Hi Troy, for a frag tank with little to no bio load sure that will work, Im aiming for an entire system with no LR, should at least prove an interesting project to see if it can maintain a bio load like LR then its pretty straight forward to see if denitrification can happen