Is Ich really present in every batch of saltwater?

[Jay Hemdal]

If you leave the tank fishless for 75-80 days, any ich will die.

(Edit: I hope Jay will correct my timeframe if it's too long... The "old way" was to run fallow for 76 days, I believe)

That time frame works, it's just that people are impatient and want a shorter time. If you raise the water temperature of the tank running fallow to 81 degrees, you only need 45 to 60 days.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I think that we are mixing terms. Dormant is not the right term even if this is what it seems like from a human perspective. What might be more appropriate is that a small amount of the parasite sticks around and continues the lifecycle while never impacting a fish to where we can see it.

What is more likely happening in super mature tanks is that the time spent off of the fish in the tomont phase has the parasite fighting to not become food to the other microfauna in the tank. Lower parasite numbers and healthier fish are good things.

I have never heard if fish can develop parasite immunity to ich. Not all things can develop immunity to parasites and some never do - surely this has been studied, but I have never seen results for ich.

I agree, ich has difficulty reaching acute levels in mature tanks because of predation from microfauna. Even protein skimmers can export some of the theronts.

There have been some studies indicating that fish can develop acquired immunity to ich, but it is partial and transient. That means it limits, but does not eliminate the disease and once the "challenge" goes away, the fish lose the immunity after some time (4 to 8 months is my understanding).

I used to believe that immunity to higher parasites was unlikely - just like people don't become "immune" to toxins. I've found a decent study that also showed partial immunity to Neobenedenia skin flukes, which pretty much made me change my thought on the matter.....

Jay

 

[Lasse]

Time change and with that knowledge

This review is published this year. I normally hate to link to articles that I can´t access (behind paywalls) but this abstract sounds very interesting - those of you that can reach this article may get some more understanding of fish immunity to extracellular protozoa

Abstract​

The parasitic ciliate Cryptocaryon irritans, which infects almost all marine fish species occurring in both tropical and subtropical regions throughout the world. The disease, cryptocaryonosis, accounts for significant economic losses to the aquaculture industry. This review attempts to provide a comprehensive overview of the biology of the parasite, host-parasite interactions and both specific and non-specific host defense mechanisms are responsible for the protection of fish against challenge infections with this ciliate. Also, this article reflects the current interest in this subject area and the quest to develop an available vaccine against the disease. Due to the high frequency of clinical fish cryptocaryonosis, the study of fish immune responses to C. irritans provides an optimal experimental model for understanding immunity against extracellular protozoa.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[jda]

When I worked at the LFS in college, we used diatom filter at behest of one of the St. Louis Zoo pros to help filter disease parasites in the water - diatom filters are certainly capable of this size, as are many other filters. There is no way for any filter to catch the all unless you got lotto-level lucky.

I would think that most ich cysts in the sand for long would become a meal for something else, but I guess that a few of them would make it through.

Coral, frag plugs, frags, etc. can also bring in diseases that have settled onto their surfaces. If the original sentiment was to always assume that any water had ich, then the dude was on the money, IMO.

 

[Paul B]

I have very good vision but I can't see ich. I don't know if the parasites are present in all tanks but it is in all seawater and therefore on all wild fish (I think).

Ich has been there as long as fish have lived and healthy fish have no issue living with ich just as we have skin parasites and they don't bother us. I think you can kill all parasites using a few means but I think it's counter productive to do that.

Healthy fish that are not medicated or quarantined, fed the proper foods with living bacteria and living in a tank with some age on it that has the proper hiding places where the fish can't see you.

If you eliminate all the parasites, the fishes natural immunity will wane as Jay said in 4-8 months leaving the fish defenceless.

 

[Pickle_soup]

oops wrong post

 

[Pickle_soup]

Welcome!!!

 

[Spare time]

Have you seen Paul B's threads on this with his tank where he actually introduces ich covered fish into his system to build immunity?

That's not evidence that it went dorment from an infection stage.

 

[Spare time]

I think anyone who has developed reefing knowledge with time knows the significance of live ocean rock versus dead rock . I just like his natural approach to everything. I think we all know tanks that are to sterile are not healthy. I stand by my belief that ich gets into every tank at some point. Whether it becomes a problem depends on the health of your fish and your overall biome in your tank. Basically what Paul says and tests by putting ich covered fish into his system.

I do think modern methods for ich control can be effective also as Jay states and you reference also.

If it was about live ocean rock then tanks that are super established and have age old rock in it that got pieces from the ocean, fish in there should have minimal ich on them if it's present. But that is not the case. Ive seen fish die from ich in aged tanks with ocean rock after they got smothered by ich.

 

[Spare time]

Time change and with that knowledge

This review is published this year. I normally hate to link to articles that I can´t access (behind paywalls) but this abstract sounds very interesting - those of you that can reach this article may get some more understanding of fish immunity to extracellular protozoa



Sincerely Lasse

I can access it and share it probably if you'd like

 

[Lavey29]

If it was about live ocean rock then tanks that are super established and have age old rock in it that got pieces from the ocean, fish in there should have minimal ich on them if it's present. But that is not the case. Ive seen fish die from ich in aged tanks with ocean rock after they got smothered by ich.

Takes more then age and rock to sustain a box of water though. There are other pieces of the puzzle that need to be in place as well.

 

[Lavey29]

That's not evidence that it went dorment from an infection stage.

Obviously it's not a scientific experiment but his results demonstrated after intentionally introducing ich to his tank and offering no medical treatment like copper or anything else, none of his fish got severe ich and died from what I remember. So where did this ich go? Is it alive in his tank still? Is it dormant and waiting for a compromised immune system? Did it die off after not finding sufficient hosts? Things that make you go hhhmmmm

 

[homersimpsonlikesfish]

Is a 55 watt UV sterilizer okay for a ten gallon tank, or is it way too overkill? I want my aquarium to be Ich free.

 

[Lavey29]

Is a 55 watt UV sterilizer okay for a ten gallon tank, or is it way too overkill? I want my aquarium to be Ich free.

Just curious but if ich attaches to rock, sand, fish. Snails, corals, etc... how does a UV eliminate what is not in the water column?

 

[homersimpsonlikesfish]

Just curious but if ich attaches to rock, sand, fish. Snails, corals, etc... how does a UV eliminate what is not in the water column?

I guess you have a good point. How do I remove Ich, if any, from live rock and sand?

 

[EricR]

Just curious but if ich attaches to rock, sand, fish. Snails, corals, etc... how does a UV eliminate what is not in the water column?

My obvious statement of the day would be:
Free-swimming (infectious) stage does enter the water column.

Whether or not it's likely that most during that stage will make it into the UV is another topic that I won't bother even guessing at.

 

[homersimpsonlikesfish]

Will removing the fish from an infected tank and raising the water temperature to 90 degrees kill the Ich in the infected tank within 48 hours?

 

[vetteguy53081]

If I want to use a UV filter what is the minimum wattage of a UV bulb that will work for a ten gallon tank?

8wt

 

[Pickle_soup]

Will removing the fish from an infected tank and raising the water temperature to 90 degrees kill the Ich in the infected tank within 48 hours?

I have never seen this question before, but I will say not it won't, or the Florida coast will be completely free of ich this summer.

 

[Pickle_soup]

Is a 55 watt UV sterilizer okay for a ten gallon tank, or is it way too overkill? I want my aquarium to be Ich free.

I would be really suspicious of a 55-watt sterilizer for $100. Somewhere the costs were cut.