Lets Discuss Ethics in the Hobby

[FishOkay]

And the rest that goes with that.

So in reality, we all are denying freedom to things. Yet we are also keeping them fed, predators away from them, etc.

I get where you are going and I hope you see where I am going. While out fish do not fit what Lincolns statement was meant to address. Then this whole hobby with any hobby that involves critters is wrong. No matter if we make their life the best it can be from our point of view.

You have a tank, or at least your avatar is a tank. So it puts you at fault also. This is not the direction I am looking for this to go. Take out the glass box and then lets move to the critters as to what is or is not ethical.

We all know that the arguments can be made for fish have it better in a glass box most of the time or that we are cruel for not letting them be part of the food chain.

Lets get down to the specifics. Like is killing an undesirable creature ethical or not.

Ah yeah I'm only really messing lol fishes aren't people I'm sure Abraham meant people. I keep fish in glass boxes and to be fair to me they don't seem to mind, if I thought a fish was stressed I would do my best to remove it for sure.
But in all seriousness ethical is one thing but it comes down to someones own morality really, personally depending on what it is I think it's best to try and rehome but if that's not possible and killing is required then humanely is best. But to me that's just common sense.
Like I don't know if itl feel pain or what but it's probably best just to assume it does and do it humanely not just for the animal but for me aswell I don't want no bad karma lol

 

[Eagle_Steve]

I'm not intelligent enough to provide much input. I would have failed the test even tho I can provide for a child I would not be allowed to have any. I think its more a matter of opinion on what is ethical. To me its pretty much like politics and religion. Its all based on beliefs and opinions with little or no facts involved. There really isn't a right or wrong on this subject. Its just what you believe is right or wrong. Sure the obvious guy beating his dog is unethical but maybe to him it isn't? It pretty much boils down to how you were raised I think, or your experiences later in life that form your opinions on right and wrong. My mother in law once said "you believe what you want to believe and I'll believe what I want to believe". I couldn't argue with that statement even tho I know I was right

That is not true. You seem like a relatively smart person.

The goal of this is to see what everyone thinks is ethical and not ethical. From this we may be able to find some common ground along the line.

 

[Jeffcb]

So, due to a previous thread and the last comment by a Mod, what is considered ethical?

Is killing a hermit by stomping on it ethical? If no, then why is injecting vinegar into an aiptasia OK? If yes, then why all the uproar?

You see where I am going here. But let expand a little.

By injecting the nem with vinegar, you are burning it. Yet stepping on a hermit to kill it quickly is not OK?

At least it is quick and you are not injecting the crab with vinegar.

Then we get into nuking tanks for baddies. Think about how much stuff dies when you reset a tank and dry a rock out. Is that OK.

Does "ethical" only apply to fish and crabs? Would it not apply to all "living things"?

Buy the way, lets keep this PC and "Be Nice".

Dose it make a difference if the animal has a brain or not?

I don't now if an animal with out a brain has feelings?

Does it matter?

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Ah yeah I'm only really messing lol fishes aren't people I'm sure Abraham meant people. I keep fish in glass boxes and to be fair to me they don't seem to mind, if I thought a fish was stressed I would do my best to remove it for sure.
But in all seriousness ethical is one thing but it comes down to someones own morality really, personally depending on what it is I think it's best to try and rehome but if that's not possible and killing is required then humanely is best. But to me that's just common sense.
Like I don't know if itl feel pain or what but it's probably best just to assume it does and do it humanely not just for the animal but for me aswell I don't want no bad karma lol

I agree. But I think I failed on the point I was trying to get on this thread. I want to hear from others what they think is and is not ethical.

Like the list of things I posted above. I want to see more of that. I bet global ethics are more close to being in line than we think. At least for most of the hobby.

Either way, the goal is to try and get some definitions from others.

I know that will be hard, as others may be worried about getting railed by someone for their "ethical and not ethical" list, so I laid mine out there. I could care less is someone bashed me. Been blown up, shot 4 times, blown up again and a few other things. Not much that can phase me now lol.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Dose it make a difference if the animal has a brain or not?

I don't now if an animal with out a brain has feelings?

Does it matter?

How do we define a brain? Is it just a physical thing in a head? Is it a collection of nerves? Is it something that is only a brain of use if it is "self aware"?

Or does the fact it respirates, reacts to things and can die consider it as being "alive".

There are numerous critter without "brains" that have very complex nervous systems that still do the processes brains do, to an extent.

See where I am going here. Hard to classify something like that. This is why I am looking for examples off ethical and not ethical for everyone.

 

[d2mini]

If you want to talk ethics... we shouldn't even have a tank at all considering what the collection/distribution industry is like. And no matter the size of your tank, it's minuscule compared to what the animals are used to.

You do you and don't worry about anyone else.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

If you want to talk ethics... we shouldn't even have a tank at all considering what the collection/distribution industry is like. And no matter the size of your tank, it's minuscule compared to what the animals are used to.

You do you and don't worry about anyone else.

Not quite beneficial, but I see your point.

I always do me and only me. So no issues there. I am just curious as to what others think, what the mods thinks, etc.

Yes we keep things in a glass box, we keep wild animals that were domesticated years and years ago, we eat animal, we eat plants. One can argue that none of those are ethical. That is not what I am trying to do. I could care less about the arguing or the "you do you " thing. I want o see what others consider ethical.

Heck, maybe me asking that is not ethical to someone.

Either way, thanks for stopping by.

 

[exnisstech]

The goal of this is to see what everyone thinks is ethical and not ethical. From this we may be able to find some common ground along the line.

I understand the goal I think . You want a line drawn on what is unethical or ethical so we all know what that is and can post accordingly and not break the rules? I doubt there will be a common ground. Some people think stepping on an ant is wrong and some people don't. I just doubt that there is any way to create a list of what is ethical vs unethical because as I said it is all based on opinions not facts.

 

[Thales]

Here are several articles about ethics in the hobby if anyone is interested

447円古式手延 稲庭うどん 200g 稲庭古城堂麺類,パスタその他麺類,パスタ 古式手延・稲庭うどん」の通信販売｜しぜんとくらそ | therichross.com

447円古式手延 稲庭うどん 200g 稲庭古城堂麺類,パスタその他麺類,パスタ 古式手延・稲庭うどん」の通信販売｜しぜんとくらそ | therichross.com

therichross.com

 

[Eagle_Steve]

I understand the goal I think . You want a line drawn on what is unethical or ethical so we all know what that is and can post accordingly and not break the rules? I doubt there will be a common ground. Some people think stepping on an ant is wrong and some people don't. I just doubt that there is any way to create a list of what is ethical vs unethical because as I said it is all based on opinions not facts.

Yes and no.

This is more to see how much common ground we all have.

At the end of the day, we are at the mercy of the mods. I get that. Would just be nice to have a few common things everyone considers ethical or not ethical to go off of.

End of day, there will always be differences and that is what makes things great. Well, provided it can lead to a civil discussion and people can meet in the middle or can see others points of view. To much of an optimist here lol.

If that makes sense.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Reefing ethics for me is fairly similar to looking into a ecosystem, if a species is getting out of control and risking the overall balance of a protected organism or several organisms in a ecosystem then intervention is normally the ethical thing to do to keep the overall balance between predator and prey.

 

[FishOkay]

I agree. But I think I failed on the point I was trying to get on this thread. I want to hear from others what they think is and is not ethical.

Like the list of things I posted above. I want to see more of that. I bet global ethics are more close to being in line than we think. At least for most of the hobby.

Either way, the goal is to try and get some definitions from others.

I know that will be hard, as others may be worried about getting railed by someone for their "ethical and not ethical" list, so I laid mine out there. I could care less is someone bashed me. Been blown up, shot 4 times, blown up again and a few other things. Not much that can phase me now lol.

Well personally I'd have said stomping on a fiah or crab is unethical imo but couldn't really explain why lol because like you have said it's quick and instant but at the same time it just seems a bit to violent to be ethical.
Ethical to me is anything quick, painless and respectful.

 

[Jeffcb]

That is not true. You seem like a relatively smart person.

The goal of this is to see what everyone thinks is ethical and not ethical. From this we may be able to find some common ground along the line.

I don't think it mattes. We are all individual brains and are going to do what we want and think we should do.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Well personally I'd have said stomping on a fiah or crab is unethical imo but couldn't really explain why lol because like you have said it's quick and instant but at the same time it just seems a bit to violent to be ethical.
Ethical to me is anything quick, painless and respectful.

and this is what I am looking for. While brutal, I see it as ethical. Others do not, but most will agree "at least it is quick" or "it is less painful".

But then lets look at a sick fish with no hope of treatment. I would dose clove oil (as I have it) to sedate the fish and continue dosing until the respiration stops. While someone without clove oil may have to resort to hitting the fish with a hammer in the head to end it quickly. At that point, I feel both are ethical. Would "prefer" the first option, but understand the second option.

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

I'm gonna blast my purple tang into space later today with fireworks or a rocket I made myself. Does this seem ethical? Lol
Asking ppl about what's ethical or not is totally based off the individual persons morals and their own ethics.
D

I'm down to watch, is your purple riding in a Tesla roadster on its moonshot voyage. Let it know to say hello to Laika the space dog!

 

[Eagle_Steve]

I don't think it mattes. We are all individual brains and are going to do what we want and think we should do.

True. and some do ask on here to get "validation", so I get that part.

But lets hear some examples of what you think is ethical and not ethical.

I just keep hearing "everyone is going to do what they do" and want to hear "I would do this for this and that for that"

 

[Kraig]

Do you guys know if you add your age plus the year you were born it equals 2022....how cool huh

I was born in 1972 and I am 35. That does not equal 2022. You were wrong

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

If you want to talk ethics... we shouldn't even have a tank at all considering what the collection/distribution industry is like. And no matter the size of your tank, it's minuscule compared to what the animals are used to.

You do you and don't worry about anyone else.

This. Seriously this. The collection and overall husbandry practices are barbaric if you wanna talk about aquaria.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

I understand the goal I think . You want a line drawn on what is unethical or ethical so we all know what that is and can post accordingly and not break the rules?

I think that is a rational ask.

If we are to be bound by the Terms of Service, to be Ethical, there should be a definition of ethical.


To me, cutting anemones and mushrooms to propagate is not ethical.

To me, rehoming a fish back to the LFS when too large is ethical.

To me, buying fish collected off of an established reef is ethical.

I have had discussions about all of the above, with people who disagree with me on this, here.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

This. Seriously this. The collection and overall husbandry practices are barbaric if you wanna talk about aquaria.

So why do you still have a tank? Supporting the "barbaric" stuff just keeps it going.

That was just an example and not a real question. Please feel free to line out some things you think are and are not ethical.

Would love to see something besides "the industry sucks" to be added to this discussion. Albeit one sided with me being the only one to list out things I feel are ethical or not ethical.