My Current QT Process

[Conor_K]

I am always down for that answer.

Cheers.

 

[Conor_K]

So hopefully my questions don’t get irritating, but being my first crack at this, I’m asking as things come up.

I mixed my first bactch of food with GC and focus tonight. 1 tablespoon is going to be enough to feed these two squirts for almost a week.

So I divied the mixture out on wax paper and sealed it in a ziploc and put it in the fridge. Do you think the medication will be effective like that for the next 5-7 days?

Good news, both took to eating the first round right away...

Thanks,
Conor

 

[HotRocks]

So hopefully my questions don’t get irritating, but being my first crack at this, I’m asking as things come up.

I mixed my first bactch of food with GC and focus tonight. 1 tablespoon is going to be enough to feed these two squirts for almost a week.

So I divied the mixture out on wax paper and sealed it in a ziploc and put it in the fridge. Do you think the medication will be effective like that for the next 5-7 days?

Good news, both took to eating the first round right away...

Thanks,
Conor

Not irritated at all my friend. I'd rather you ask so you can learn from my mistakes than make a costly error on your own.

I only use any refrigerated food for 3-5 days. I worry about harmful bacteria or spoiling. So only refrigerate enough for 3-5 days and freeze the rest. Then move portions over from the freezer to the fridge to thaw the night before you need them.

Glad to hear they are eating it!

 

[Heavymman]

I am frequently asked what my process is for QT, so I am just creating a thread that I can link users to for a reference.

On arrival day, I match salinity in QT to arriving fish or make sure it's a touch lower (Usually 1.018).

Acclimate (float for 30-45min in bag and release) fish directly into a QT that is pre-dosed to 1.0ppm copper (copper power) upon arrival. This is much safer than drip acclimation and removes the possibility of ammonia exposure during acclimation.

I start fish off on food soaked general cure + Focus day one (continue for 14 days).
I do also keep live food on hand and feed live foods as well for the first few days until the picky eaters and others are eating frozen well.

Dosage for food soaked meds:
Add 1 scoop of GC (scoop that comes with focus) + 1 scoop focus per 1 tablsespoon of prepared frozen food. I add selcon + a touch of garlic to help dissolve the meds.
*You can also use Metroplex in place of general cure, it does however only treat for intestinal parasites instead of intestinal parasites + worms*. This food can be refrigerated once medicated. Is for 3-5 days, toss and make new.

Then I spend the next three days raising cu level to 1.75ppm. increasing the level .25ppm per day. I do this by dosing half of the daily increase in the am and the other half in the pm.

At this point I am watching very closely for external symptoms of bacterial infections. If one arises or a fish prone to infection stops eating then I dose Spectogram (Kanamycin+Nitrofurazone) and continue throughout copper. You can also use Kanaplex+furan-2. The WCs are fun maintaining the therapeutic Cu level. But once you have the hang of it, it's not bad. Copper has to be pre-dosed into new SW prior to adding to tank to keep Cu level from dropping below therapeutic.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ratios-for-dosing-copper-power.385871/

Also, If you are combining ABX + Copper you need heavy agitation at the surface of the water. This can be best achieved by running a powerhead aimed upward at the surface. I also run air stone and HOB filter. The combination of these meds will deplete the water column of oxygen at a heavy rate so you have to compensate.

Keep in mind ABX are slow to work on fish. They are likely to be even slower in the presence of copper due to the weakened immune system. So the Spectogram IME has always prevented infection from worsening. Some have healed. I do also keep Sulfaplex and Neoplex handy for certain types of infections. They are safe to use with copper.

After 14 days of therapeutic copper I transfer to a 2nd sterile QT. Temp/salinity matching.

After the transfer if I have a fish that is still showing signs of infection I would run a 14 day course of NFG. If no signs of infection is present I would skip NFG.

Last step is two rounds of Praziquantel using either GC or Prazipro. I prefer GC as it contains metronidazole as well and covers a few other diseases like Brook and uronema. This treatment is dosed into the water column to treat externally, as I have covered internal issues during copper with the food soaked meds.

14 Days of observation post medications prior to transfer to DT in order to make sure the fish are healthy and disease free.

This is a very aggressive approach. I can tell you though I have improved my success rate significantly since adapting to this method. It is not bulletproof. The bottom line is you may have to changeup in the middle of the process due to unforeseen circumstances.

After the Hanna checker discovery I was getting fish through copper without much issue, but using the same tank and treating for 30 days I was losing fish in the 20-30 day range to bacterial infection. So now using multiple tanks and reducing the copper exposure time along with having the proper ABX to be used with/without copper it is what worked best for me. We are still working on tweaking it a bit. Most of this system was designed/adapted with much help of @Humblefish + @4FordFamily. To keep up with the unfortunate condition we have recently been receiving it may have to be altered as time passes.

I also preform FW dips if I see a fish scratching in copper (After 7 days at the therapeutic level) to check for flukes and/or provide temporary relief. If a fish arrives with velvet/velvet symptoms they get a FW dip as well as a 90 min Ruby Reef rally bath per @Humblefish's normal protocol.

Fish with suspected ammonia burn would receive a 30 min bath in Methalyne Blue.

My Personal Medication list:
Copper Power
API General Cure
NFG http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html
Spectrogram http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#spectrogram
Kanaplex
Metroplex
Neoplex
Sulfaplex
Furan-2
Methalyne Blue
Ruby Reef Rally
Formalin

This is a very helpful link by @Humblefish regarding fish meds:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/medications-to-keep-on-hand.213574/

Couple other great links regarding QT:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/unread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-dos-and-don’ts-of-quarantine.203898/unread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-control-in-a-hospital-tank.296119/

Awesome guide, thanks @HotRocks

 

[HotRocks]

Awesome guide, thanks @HotRocks

You are welcome!

Going to be slightly modifying this here after some additional testing/repetition is complete.

 

[drstardust]

You are welcome!

Going to be slightly modifying this here after some additional testing/repetition is complete.

can’t wait! I’m always looking for new and improved protocols

 

[mfollen]

@HotRocks Any estimate on when the modified/new process might be ready to share?

Thank you!

 

[johnj]

cannot you just do a fresh water dip on fish after the copper treatment tank and put them into your main tank" that will kill all external items still on fish wont it

 

[HotRocks]

@HotRocks Any estimate on when the modified/new process might be ready to share?

Thank you!

Here in the next few weeks!

cannot you just do a fresh water dip on fish after the copper treatment tank and put them into your main tank" that will kill all external items still on fish wont it

I would still recommend observation for 14 days post treatment. A FW dip can remove most, but not all unwanted hitchhikers. If something slipped through the cracks you would be risking the entire DT Population and possibly have to tear down the tank if something made its way there. FW dips are great for confirmation of flukes, removing a heavy fluke infestation prior to treatment with prazi, and temporary relief for things like velvet, brook, etc. If it was good enough to remove everything we could simply use a series of FW dips to QT fish instead of medicating.

 

[johnj]

Here in the next few weeks!

I would still recommend observation for 14 days post treatment. A FW dip can remove most, but not all unwanted hitchhikers. If something slipped through the cracks you would be risking the entire DT Population and possibly have to tear down the tank if something made its way there. FW dips are great for confirmation of flukes, removing a heavy fluke infestation prior to treatment with prazi, and temporary relief for things like velvet, brook, etc. If it was good enough to remove everything we could simply use a series of FW dips to QT fish instead of medicating.

Thanks for reply HotRocks do you do a water change at any time in the copper stage if no ammonia and do you do a water change after 1st round of GC before dosing 2nd batch of GC
Can I put the fish from the shop im picking up straight into the 1.0ppm copper and salinity at 1.018 even though shop salinity is like around 1.025 salinity

 

[MnFish1]

I am frequently asked what my process is for QT, so I am just creating a thread that I can link users to for a reference.

On arrival day, I match salinity in QT to arriving fish or make sure it's a touch lower (Usually 1.018).

Acclimate (float for 30-45min in bag and release) fish directly into a QT that is pre-dosed to 1.0ppm copper (copper power) upon arrival. This is much safer than drip acclimation and removes the possibility of ammonia exposure during acclimation.

I start fish off on food soaked general cure + Focus day one (continue for 14 days).
I do also keep live food on hand and feed live foods as well for the first few days until the picky eaters and others are eating frozen well.

Dosage for food soaked meds:
Add 1 scoop of GC (scoop that comes with focus) + 1 scoop focus per 1 tablsespoon of prepared frozen food. I add selcon + a touch of garlic to help dissolve the meds.
*You can also use Metroplex in place of general cure, it does however only treat for intestinal parasites instead of intestinal parasites + worms*. This food can be refrigerated once medicated. Is for 3-5 days, toss and make new.

Then I spend the next three days raising cu level to 1.75ppm. increasing the level .25ppm per day. I do this by dosing half of the daily increase in the am and the other half in the pm.

At this point I am watching very closely for external symptoms of bacterial infections. If one arises or a fish prone to infection stops eating then I dose Spectogram (Kanamycin+Nitrofurazone) and continue throughout copper. You can also use Kanaplex+furan-2. The WCs are fun maintaining the therapeutic Cu level. But once you have the hang of it, it's not bad. Copper has to be pre-dosed into new SW prior to adding to tank to keep Cu level from dropping below therapeutic.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ratios-for-dosing-copper-power.385871/

Also, If you are combining ABX + Copper you need heavy agitation at the surface of the water. This can be best achieved by running a powerhead aimed upward at the surface. I also run air stone and HOB filter. The combination of these meds will deplete the water column of oxygen at a heavy rate so you have to compensate.

Keep in mind ABX are slow to work on fish. They are likely to be even slower in the presence of copper due to the weakened immune system. So the Spectogram IME has always prevented infection from worsening. Some have healed. I do also keep Sulfaplex and Neoplex handy for certain types of infections. They are safe to use with copper.

After 14 days of therapeutic copper I transfer to a 2nd sterile QT. Temp/salinity matching.

After the transfer if I have a fish that is still showing signs of infection I would run a 14 day course of NFG. If no signs of infection is present I would skip NFG.

Last step is two rounds of Praziquantel using either GC or Prazipro. I prefer GC as it contains metronidazole as well and covers a few other diseases like Brook and uronema. This treatment is dosed into the water column to treat externally, as I have covered internal issues during copper with the food soaked meds.

14 Days of observation post medications prior to transfer to DT in order to make sure the fish are healthy and disease free.

This is a very aggressive approach. I can tell you though I have improved my success rate significantly since adapting to this method. It is not bulletproof. The bottom line is you may have to changeup in the middle of the process due to unforeseen circumstances.

After the Hanna checker discovery I was getting fish through copper without much issue, but using the same tank and treating for 30 days I was losing fish in the 20-30 day range to bacterial infection. So now using multiple tanks and reducing the copper exposure time along with having the proper ABX to be used with/without copper it is what worked best for me. We are still working on tweaking it a bit. Most of this system was designed/adapted with much help of @Humblefish + @4FordFamily. To keep up with the unfortunate condition we have recently been receiving it may have to be altered as time passes.

I also preform FW dips if I see a fish scratching in copper (After 7 days at the therapeutic level) to check for flukes and/or provide temporary relief. If a fish arrives with velvet/velvet symptoms they get a FW dip as well as a 90 min Ruby Reef rally bath per @Humblefish's normal protocol.

Fish with suspected ammonia burn would receive a 30 min bath in Methalyne Blue.

My Personal Medication list:
Copper Power
API General Cure
NFG http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html
Spectrogram http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#spectrogram
Kanaplex
Metroplex
Neoplex
Sulfaplex
Furan-2
Methalyne Blue
Ruby Reef Rally
Formalin

This is a very helpful link by @Humblefish regarding fish meds:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/medications-to-keep-on-hand.213574/

Couple other great links regarding QT:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/unread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-dos-and-don’ts-of-quarantine.203898/unread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-control-in-a-hospital-tank.296119/

Nice article - can I ask - what salinity do you keep your DT at - what temperature do you keep your QT at?

Also some abbreviations I'm not familiar with - I assume GC is general cure - but - Dont know what NFG is thanks for a nice write up

 

[MnFish1]

70-75% of the fish that have been through this process successfully came from LA.

For adding GC or Metroplex to food. I mix it in with fozen food, a bit of garlic guard for flavor and selcon to help dissolve the meds.

Prepare your frozen food. Add 1 scoop of focus and 1 scoop (same scoop used for focus) of general cure to 1 tablsespoon of prepared frozen food.

You can then refrigerate the mix for 3-5 days and toss and make new after that. Or refreeze what can't be used in 3-5 days etc.

The post copper 2 rounds of GC or Prazipro (5-7 days apart) is dosed into the water column to treat for external worms like flukes etc.

One interesting question - that is (totally) unrealistic to do - is taking fish from a group from the same supplier - and dividing them into groups - 1 group going through the QT one just sitting in a QT tank with no medications. Note I'm not suggesting you do this lol - and I'm sure this has already been done.

It would also have to be done multiple times and with different fish - and would rapidly become expensive. But it would be interesting to have something like this on a small scale.

 

[User]

One interesting question - that is (totally) unrealistic to do - is taking fish from a group from the same supplier - and dividing them into groups - 1 group going through the QT one just sitting in a QT tank with no medications. Note I'm not suggesting you do this lol - and I'm sure this has already been done.

It would also have to be done multiple times and with different fish - and would rapidly become expensive. But it would be interesting to have something like this on a small scale.

I don’t think there is any need fir unmedicated control groups when we already know there is a disease issue with the current stock chain. It’s unethical to do this when human diseases are studied- why are fish lives any less important that we consider them disposable enough to let them die as an ‘experimental control’ we don’t need?

 

[MnFish1]

I don’t think there is any need fir unmedicated control groups when we already know there is a disease issue with the current stock chain. It’s unethical to do this when human diseases are studied- why are fish lives any less important that we consider them disposable enough to let them die as an ‘experimental control’ we don’t need?

As I said - I'm sure the experiment has already been done. As I also said - I'm not really recommending that anyone do this. That said there are numerous threads that completely deny the need for QT - instead just adding quality live foods, etc (I don't personally QT - But the store from which I buy my fish does a similar process to the one mentioned here). There are many other people that QT by merely observing their fish (i.e. no medications) - that claim success.

Of course if one were to do this type of experiment - if the 'control group' showed disease - it would be treated - not just left to die. BTW - its often stated that there is a problem with the current stock chain - I have yet to get a good reason as to 'why' its any better or worse than 40 years ago. None of this is meant to take away from @HotRocks excellent article - I would tend to think this is the most likely to be successful method long-term.

 

[4FordFamily]

When we have NOT controlled for a certain disease, it's eared it's ugly head. Recently, CP failed us (really, the poly bad we didn't realize was poly) failed us. We had a bout of uronema come up as well which the new process will generally neutralize. We are testing a bit more before releasing the new one.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/warning-using-marineland-hob-with-medications.541752/

This lesson was VERY expensive. Everyone was doing so well until observation. Anyway, take heed to that thread's warning, and the revised process will be released soon.

I've also recently experimented with NFG, Copper Power, AND Metroplex -- even dosing Prazi for an hour before a water change without much issue. This is NOT an ideal scenario, but it was needed for the bad infection and velvet that remained on the fish that went through CP (due to it being removed by the filter). Bio filter needs constant dosing of Biospira, particularly early on. I don't recommend this course of action, but it can be done in an emergency.

 

[HotRocks]

Thanks for reply HotRocks do you do a water change at any time in the copper stage if no ammonia and do you do a water change after 1st round of GC before dosing 2nd batch of GC
Can I put the fish from the shop im picking up straight into the 1.0ppm copper and salinity at 1.018 even though shop salinity is like around 1.025 salinity

I would use 1.0ppm Copper and match the inbound salinity of 1.025. I only use 1.018 because nearly all fish I order come from QM and are arriving around 1.018-1.019.

Generally a WC is not needed during copper treatment period. It's a judgement call you have to make based on your water quality/clarity.

 

[HotRocks]

Nice article - can I ask - what salinity do you keep your DT at - what temperature do you keep your QT at?

Also some abbreviations I'm not familiar with - I assume GC is general cure - but - Dont know what NFG is thanks for a nice write up

Thanks @MnFish1

DT Salinity is 1.026
QT Temp is 76F

Yes GC is General Cure
NFG Is Nitrofuracin Green Powder: http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks @MnFish1

DT Salinity is 1.026
QT Temp is 76F

Yes GC is General Cure
NFG Is Nitrofuracin Green Powder: http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html

Thank you.

 

[nbd13]

Sorry for the newbie question, I’ve been out of the hobby for 10 years and just getting back in. Back then not everyone quarantined, but I’m going to this time. I was going to use the TTM and Prazipro on 2/4 transfers per some other protocol I found on here...

But you suggest to skip that all together and follow your method? Want to do what’s best.

Also you dose those meds with a HOB filter going? Won’t the meds stay within the filter sponge?

Thanks,

Nick

 

[HotRocks]

Sorry for the newbie question, I’ve been out of the hobby for 10 years and just getting back in. Back then not everyone quarantined, but I’m going to this time. I was going to use the TTM and Prazipro on 2/4 transfers per some other protocol I found on here...

But you suggest to skip that all together and follow your method? Want to do what’s best.

Also you dose those meds with a HOB filter going? Won’t the meds stay within the filter sponge?

Thanks,

Nick

I prefer not to use TTM as it leaves several gaps in treatment coverage.

Filters are fine so long as they don't include any polyfiber/carbon/etc.