My Current QT Process

[HotRocks]

Does this make more sense?

I see what you are saying since you don't know the exact volume

Yes this should work!

 

[infinite0180]

I see what you are saying since you don't know the exact volume

Yes this should work!

Thanks! Ill test it out and report back.

 

[MnFish1]

@Hallowhead
Sorry for your troubles.
I’ve ordered plenty of fish from Liveaquaria/Quality Marine over the years. Matter of fact I was going to place an order a couple of weeks ago and the item was out of stock by the time I was ready to order. I emailed them and asked what their shipping parameters were. Despite their response, every shipment I’ve ever received has been much lower than what they say. It’s Always around 1.017-1.018.

Live Aquaria

Response By Email (Tammy K.) (08/05/2019 07:51 AM) Dear Jeff, Thank you for your email. When we package our specimen(s) the water is 1.021, this allows for any fluctuation during shipment. They are housed for their stay with our with aquarium stats of, temp 78, salinity 1.021 ph. 8.1-8.4depending on the time of day. Thank you for choosing LiveAquaria for your live aquatic needs. You are a valued customer and we look forward to hearing from you in the future. If we can be of any additional assistance, please feel free to contact our LiveAquaria Department at 1-800-334-3699 or via email at [email protected]. We will be happy to answer any question(s) you may have. Sincerely, LiveAquaria All of that being said, I usually get my water close to the 1.018 range and have saltwater and Ro/di ready so if I need to adjust up or down I can to match shipping parameters in the Qt tank. A lot of times when livestock ships, ph drops and Co2 rises Nh3 “ammonia” is converted to Nh4”ammonium” which is far less toxic. If the animals shipping water ph is very low, I’ll drop the ph of the “ transition” water in a bucket to match it using 1 mL of distilled white vinegar per gallon of aquarium water to achieve an initial pH drop of about 0.3 pH units. So the temp, ph, salinity, is all the same. This gives the fish time to flush out entrained ammonia in the gills. The transition water is fresh saltwater adjusted to that of the bag. After about ten minutes or so in the bucket ill bring the ph up to that of the Qt. Remember Qt’s specific gravity is the same as shipping bag. Then when it matches fish goes straight in. I got lucky on my last shipment from another retailer. I did call before hand and ask them what they ship at. I trusted their word and adjusted the quarantine accordingly. The ph of this shipment was around 8.1 and salinity matched, so I was able to basically float to match temp and release. Drip acclimation is probably one of the worse things you can do to acclimate fish. Just by opening the bag the oxygen in the air is enough to raise ph and convert ammonium back to ammonia. I don’t why so many online retailers recommend this method. I’ve had shipments test a 5ppm total ammonia and Ph in the low 7’s.. So far as copper goes. The Hanna HR checker has been a great investment, especially coupled with copper power. There’s no guess work of trying to read a colorimetric chart. I did wait until all fish were eating for a couple of days before raising copper levels, instead of having it set at 1.0ppm off the get go. If I had seen signs of disease from the start, that would have been a different story. Ramped the levels to 2.0ppm over 2days. No issues. Yellow tang and Royal Gramma. Both eating like pigs. What did you use to seed your media with? I’m just curious. Do you have a powerhead in there to provide plenty of surface agitation to promote gas exchange? I use a MJ 1200 pointed towards the water surface. My Qt is a 20 gallon long. I think maybe a lot of times people lose fish by overdosing meds. Not saying that’s what happened. But so far as copper, if you buy a Hanna that shouldn’t be an issue. If you happen to purchase a meter make sure and buy extra reagent packets. They’re cheap. BRS usually has a good supply of both meters and reagents. You didn’t add anything like prime to the tank when you were using copper did you? I guess if your ammonia was reading zero you wouldn’t have. Any chemicals sprayed around the tank? Did you say you have lights for the tank?

Sorry - im not sure I understand:

When you buy a product - and they give instructions on how to acclimate them - why would you make up your own protocol (note - I'm not critiquing the protocol you use - though I think its a bit OCD as compared to whats' necessary - and perhaps damaging). In any case - I was under the impression that many companies ship with Prime - so that negates the ammonia concern. If they do not - adding prime will negate the ammonia concern.

For most people - I would recommend just following the instructions of the shipper.

 

[HotRocks]

Sorry - im not sure I understand:

When you buy a product - and they give instructions on how to acclimate them - why would you make up your own protocol (note - I'm not critiquing the protocol you use - though I think its a bit OCD as compared to whats' necessary - and perhaps damaging). In any case - I was under the impression that many companies ship with Prime - so that negates the ammonia concern. If they do not - adding prime will negate the ammonia concern.

For most people - I would recommend just following the instructions of the shipper.

I don't care what anyone says I would NEVER drip acclimate a fish! That's just me though :)

If we always just did what the manufacturer said all the time, it could be a lot more problematic. I can tell you several instances where in this industry that certain manufacturers have misleading info out there or don't even know enough about their products to properly advise us. That is a conversation for another thread though :) And NO I won't be mentioning them publicly. :) Good Day @MnFish1 how have you been???

 

[MnFish1]

I don't care what anyone says I would NEVER drip acclimate a fish! That's just me though :)

If we always just did what the manufacturer said all the time, it could be a lot more problematic. I can tell you several instances where in this industry that certain manufacturers have misleading info out there or don't even know enough about their products to properly advise us. That is a conversation for another thread though :) And NO I won't be mentioning them publicly. :) Good Day @MnFish1 how have you been???

Perhaps - but when the warranty from the manufacturer depends on you following their rec - its an issue. BTW - I dont do the drip thing either - I also dont claim the warranty when things go south. BUT - I would not be using vinegar, etc etc or other methods to mitigate the risks of new fish. Curious - what do you to (As you might remember - I never buy fish online anymore... But am curious as to what you do - and also - why you dont drip acclimate - I mean if the shipper says do it that way - why not?

 

[HotRocks]

Perhaps - but when the warranty from the manufacturer depends on you following their rec - its an issue. BTW - I dont do the drip thing either - I also dont claim the warranty when things go south. BUT - I would not be using vinegar, etc etc or other methods to mitigate the risks of new fish. Curious - what do you to (As you might remember - I never buy fish online anymore... But am curious as to what you do - and also - why you dont drip acclimate - I mean if the shipper says do it that way - why not?

I choose not to because "Usually" the fish are shipped with Pure oxygen. Meaning when they add the fish to the bag they "blow up the bag" with pure medical oxygen. This prevents any ammonia from fish waste along the ride from being toxic. As soon as you open the bag then the ammonia becomes toxic. That is why I would advocate against drip acclimation (with next day air fish).

So what parameters are we acclimating the fish to? Basically temp and salinity. If you order from the same source the salinity is the same 99% of the time. So for someone who QTs fish its simple to preset the salinity matching the source. Float the bags (While still sealed) for 20-40 minutes depending on the size to allow enough time for temp to match.

If you are ordering fish online and putting them in a DT (Which I would not advise unless you are using a source that you trust had properly QTd/Conditioned them) you would need some other form of acclimation most likely as fish are typically shipped in low salinity. There are places out there that sell conditioned fish and ship with salinity that is more likely to match a DT 1.024-1.026 range.

How do you check the salinity without opening a bag? Stick a blunt tip syringe in the bottom corner of the bag and draw enough water to check the salinity. Then quickly tie that corner in a knot to keep it sealed and prevent exposure to outside air.

 

[JCTReefer]

Sorry - im not sure I understand:

When you buy a product - and they give instructions on how to acclimate them - why would you make up your own protocol (note - I'm not critiquing the protocol you use - though I think its a bit OCD as compared to whats' necessary - and perhaps damaging). In any case - I was under the impression that many companies ship with Prime - so that negates the ammonia concern. If they do not - adding prime will negate the ammonia concern.

For most people - I would recommend just following the instructions of the shipper.

I don’t agree with the shippers acclimation procedures. That’s just me. There’s plenty of people in the industry that don’t drip acclimate such as SA and their white papers explain why. Bob Fenners Guerilla acclimation is useful also. He’s been in the industry forever. The vinegar info came from Randy Holmes Farley. I trust what he has to say. There’s some online vendors that void warranty if you drip acclimate. Anyways, this is just what I do. Never lost a fish by using this method. But, to each their own!:) I am OCD btw.;)

 

[MnFish1]

I choose not to because "Usually" the fish are shipped with Pure oxygen. Meaning when they add the fish to the bag they "blow up the bag" with pure medical oxygen. This prevents any ammonia from fish waste along the ride from being toxic. As soon as you open the bag then the ammonia becomes toxic. That is why I would advocate against drip acclimation (with next day air fish).

So what parameters are we acclimating the fish to? Basically temp and salinity. If you order from the same source the salinity is the same 99% of the time. So for someone who QTs fish its simple to preset the salinity matching the source. Float the bags (While still sealed) for 20-40 minutes depending on the size to allow enough time for temp to match.

If you are ordering fish online and putting them in a DT (Which I would not advise unless you are using a source that you trust had properly QTd/Conditioned them) you would need some other form of acclimation most likely as fish are typically shipped in low salinity. There are places out there that sell conditioned fish and ship with salinity that is more likely to match a DT 1.024-1.026 range.

How do you check the salinity without opening a bag? Stick a blunt tip syringe in the bottom corner of the bag and draw enough water to check the salinity. Then quickly tie that corner in a knot to keep it sealed and prevent exposure to outside air.

I'm assuming you mean 100% oxygen. Normal 'Air' is 21 % oxygen. I disagree with your comment that as soon as you open the bag the ammonia becomes toxic. I've heard of shippers shipping with prime in the bag which totally avoids this issue. In any case nothing happens immediately.


As to the salinity - this sounds facetious - but - what happens to sakinity during a typhoon on the reef. If there was a problem with their salinity - why would they recommend their policies? - dont many if not most have a guarantee - and why do they 'demand' that their guarantee be followed? Its really funny to me that you believe that opening the bag would change the ammonia/pH that quickly and that People whose job is to ship fish give incorrect instructions

 

[Feet4Fish]

I'm assuming you mean 100% oxygen. Normal 'Air' is 21 % oxygen. I disagree with your comment that as soon as you open the bag the ammonia becomes toxic. I've heard of shippers shipping with prime in the bag which totally avoids this issue. In any case nothing happens immediately.


As to the salinity - this sounds facetious - but - what happens to sakinity during a typhoon on the reef. If there was a problem with their salinity - why would they recommend their policies? - dont many if not most have a guarantee - and why do they 'demand' that their guarantee be followed? Its really funny to me that you believe that opening the bag would change the ammonia/pH that quickly and that People whose job is to ship fish give incorrect instructions

It is not a matter of anyone having any belief. Sounds science backs up the rationale to minimize exposure to oxygen and shipping water in a fish that has spent more than 6 hours in a bag. The sudden influx of oxygen raises the pH of the shipping water which reverts the safe ammonium back to toxic ammonia. Also caution must be taken with idea of Prime or similar in shipping water, if that water has any trace of copper then by adding Prime the shipper or the end consumer has all but guaranteed death.

 

[MnFish1]

It is not a matter of anyone having any belief. Sounds science backs up the rationale to minimize exposure to oxygen and shipping water in a fish that has spent more than 6 hours in a bag. The sudden influx of oxygen raises the pH of the shipping water which reverts the safe ammonium back to toxic ammonia. Also caution must be taken with idea of Prime or similar in shipping water, if that water has any trace of copper then by adding Prime the shipper or the end consumer has all but guaranteed death.

Oxygen does not raise pH - The presence or lack of CO2 does.


If Sound science backs up the rationale to minimize exposure to oxygen as you said - why do as @HotRocks shippers ship with 100% oxygen in their bags?

I think you're mixing up a couple concepts here - no offense

 

[Feet4Fish]

To each their own

 

[JCTReefer]

Depending upon the time in the bag, the metabolism and size of the fish, the total available ammonia, TAM, called NHx here, level can be very high. We have measured in excess of 30 ppm. If the NHx level is very high in the shipping water, and in the form of NH4+ it is relatively harmless. But it can become exceptionally lethal immediately upon opening the shipping bag. As the water with high NHx content is exposed to the atmosphere the pH of the shipping water will change very quickly, converting a large part of the NHx will become NH3. This will burn the fishes gills
• It is important to remember that changes in shipping water changes the pH in the animals blood and this takes time to adjust too, which is one of the factors for this

• So one must be very careful in acclimation to avoid exposing the animal to NH3 or shocking the animal with too rapid a change in pH while the animal’s blood pH is reduced. Here is a good study if anyone wants to read it. It points out a lot of science based info and general observations on acclimation.
http://www.sustainableaquatics.com/docs/Acclimation-White-Paper.docx

 

[MnFish1]

Depending upon the time in the bag, the metabolism and size of the fish, the total available ammonia, TAM, called NHx here, level can be very high. We have measured in excess of 30 ppm. If the NHx level is very high in the shipping water, and in the form of NH4+ it is relatively harmless. But it can become exceptionally lethal immediately upon opening the shipping bag. As the water with high NHx content is exposed to the atmosphere the pH of the shipping water will change very quickly, converting a large part of the NHx will become NH3. This will burn the fishes gills
• It is important to remember that changes in shipping water changes the pH in the animals blood and this takes time to adjust too, which is one of the factors for this

• So one must be very careful in acclimation to avoid exposing the animal to NH3 or shocking the animal with too rapid a change in pH while the animal’s blood pH is reduced. Here is a good study if anyone wants to read it. It points out a lot of science based info and general observations on acclimation.
http://www.sustainableaquatics.com/docs/Acclimation-White-Paper.docx

Right - its the Co2 in the air as compared to the bag - rather than the 'oxygen' in either

 

[infinite0180]

Thanks! Ill test it out and report back.

It worked! Hanna checker confirmed! Just to be clear, i can feed GC/Focus food while fish are in copper right?

 

[Crabs McJones]

It worked! Hanna checker confirmed! Just to be clear, i can feed GC/Focus food while fish are in copper right?

Yes :) The focus binds the GC to the food instead of releasing it into the water :) Or at least that's what i've been doing ;)

 

[infinite0180]

Yes :) The focus binds the GC to the food instead of releasing it into the water :) Or at least that's what i've been doing ;)

Thanks for your help. Wish i had just QT from the start. Honestly dosing copper and treating fish is scary when your new to the hobby. 18 months later and ive mastered the basics haha, now this is no big deal!

 

[Crabs McJones]

Thanks for your help. Wish i had just QT from the start. Honestly dosing copper and treating fish is scary when your new to the hobby. 18 months later and ive mastered the basics haha, now this is no big deal!

Same for me. Unfortunately I had a copperband butterfly come in with velvet, lost the butterfly but was able to save all my other fish. Luckily for me @HotRocks is a very cool guy and walked me through every step. I'm sure he got sick of me blowing up his phone with questions ;) But that's ok because he returned the favor when he started his SPS tank ;Hilarious;Hilarious (I didn't mind helping him at all though and i'm sure he didn't mind helping me :) )

 

[mrbluewildcats]

I have a 29G to use as a QT tank and my understanding is with using only one tank you can run the copper for 30 days or start with GC first, then do copper after 14 days. Is this correct? Also, would these fish be too many to QT at once in that size tank? All would be 2"-3" or smaller, 8 total fish. My plan was to bring filter floss that is soaking in my sump for the HOB, plus run a strip across the back wall of the tank to take the place of live rock to handle the bioload better.

Midas Blenny (Maldives) - Medium - 1
Black & White Chromis (Fiji) - Medium - 2
Clown Goby, Yellow - Medium - 1
Kaudern's Cardinalfish, Captive-Bred (South Asia) - Large - 2
Black Axil Chromis - Small - 1
Blue Reef Chromis - Medium - 1

Thanks for this thread, by the way. Really appreciate the information.

 

[infinite0180]

Same for me. Unfortunately I had a copperband butterfly come in with velvet, lost the butterfly but was able to save all my other fish. Luckily for me @HotRocks is a very cool guy and walked me through every step. I'm sure he got sick of me blowing up his phone with questions ;) But that's ok because he returned the favor when he started his SPS tank ;Hilarious;Hilarious (I didn't mind helping him at all though and i'm sure he didn't mind helping me :) )

Thank god for the people on here! I would be lost without this place...

 

[mygsris2slo4u]

Just received this batch earlier today from LiveAquaria.

Acclimated and salinity matched directly into 1.28 copper power.

It looks like the flasher has white splotches and the fairy is swimming vertically.

Fortunately the CBB appears ok for the time being.

I added bbs though it doesn’t appear anyone ate.

Thoughts on how to proceed with the wrasses?

Is the vertical swimming a sign of swim bladder issue?