Paltoxins

[dank.reefer]

The Reason I asked for the Specific Name of the Toxic AF Paly, is because I am calling bull on his story. I think he fabricated it. So I asked for the Name of the Paly. Also I love Zoa and Paly's and I collect them, with a 300g tank I have a few.


I also think Most of the People claiming to have had Palytoxin Poisoning are self diagnosed. I base that on the Documented 177 cases in 14 years. Yes I am a SKEPTIC and I remain so, especially in light of all the LIES the Medical Industry puts out, like covid kills people, NOT A SINGLE PERSON DIED OF COVID, it was CO MORBIDITY THAT KILLED THEM, You know, like motorcycle accidents reported as Covid, sorry you fell for the Psyop Scam to Poison 1/3 of the worlds population. Maybe you should read some of the things put out by the guy that Invented the mRNA Spike Protein used in the Bioweapon Vaccines, his name is Dr Robert Malone Jr.

I can see I struck a chord with you. I can relate to the sentiment as I also keep dangerous pets that I love.

The reason I did not respond to your question of what are they called is because trade names = nonsense when it comes to species identification and I do not wish to muddy the waters any further. They are a large solid blue palythoa that grows rapily. I do not know the trade name. I am sure if you were to use your non-Google search engine it could find a hundred pictures of blue palythoas all with different names. You could then select the name of your liking.

As far as actual deaths being reported in aquarist, I can only find one report from one obscure news paper in Texas that I don't recognize as noteworthy so it will no be regurgitated here. + 1point for @Bruttall.

The only other scientific papers I could find were palytoxin poisoning resulted in death, involved injecting highly concentrated levels of Palytoxin into lab mice. Palytoxin poisoning in humans at these concentrations is highly improbable. +1 more for @Bruttall.

This does not remove from the fact that I personally have experienced what I believe to be Palytoxin poisoning from handling of palygrandis corals, and the large numer of others who have reported similar effects.

I have never tested positive for COVID either. I have however been extremely sick with flue like symptoms after being exposed to people who had tested positive. I have never actually been tested for or vaccinated against the virus either so I suppose I never had it. This would be the same logic applied to the nobody has ever died of palytoxin poisoning argument as there is no way to test for it inside of your body. This may be why there are not any reported since it cannot be confirmed.

As for my freinds dog that story is 100% true. Was it Palytoxin? Was it some other form of pathogen in the water? Was the time line shear coincidence? We will never know. The only fact is that he lost his pet and I still caution others against this since dogs are curious animals, they do taste things out of curiosity, and it can have dire consequences for the animal. I cringe when I see my dog grab for stuff in my fish room and keep the door shut or gated to that area anytime I am not in there to supervise.

My final take away is this. There are several documented cases of Palytoxin poisonings on record with varying degrees of severity. To downplay its toxicity is ridiculous and some people may be more sensitive to the toxicity than others. Maybe it won't kill those who become poisoned but, the possibility has been proven. I will continue to protect myself and caution others to the possibility of poisoning.

@Bruttall a will not discuss further with you as your conversation seems to be excessively trolling. As I am sure you will prove with some sort of scathing response to this post. I wish you happy reefkeeping and hope you never experience the pleasure of palytoxin poisoning.

 

[BeanAnimal]

@Bruttall you are arguing from a position of disbelief, not evidence. In doing so, you are also ignoring basic facts. You continue to conflate the number of reported cases with total cases and wave away everything else as BS. While death is certainly possible, are documented cases of organ damage, ICU care, dead pets and sick children not enough?

The facts and bottom line here is simple.

1 - Palytoxin is classified as one of the most dangerous biological toxins on the planet.
2 - The toxin exists in a subset of the corals that we keep, but we can't be sure which ones.
3 - Exposure can be deadly.
4 - Ensure that people understand the facts so that they can act accordingly.

Information, training and awareness are absolutely paramount to safety. Those of you who aim to dismiss simple facts are doing so from a misguided perspective and it is putting people needlessly at risk.

This has nothing to do with instilling fear in anybody or predicting doomsday. It has everything to do with equipping people with facts so that they can make informed decisions.

I am going to draw a distinct parallel here.

Firearms are deadly by design and infinitely dangerous if mishandled. Risk is raised by exposure. That risk is mitigated by following unbending universal rules.

1 - All firearms are always to be considered loaded.
2 - Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3 - Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target
4 - Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

It would be patently irresponsible to tell people that firearms are not dangerous, or that accidents or near misses are overblown. Nothing could be further from the truth. The "safety" comes from acute awareness and un-diluted respect of the risk. Those who are ignorant of the risk, mislead about the danger or choose to ignore the facts are the ones most likely to be harmed or harm somebody else due to negligence.

We can draw similar parallels to high voltage and arc flash, lab work, construction or countless other hobbies or occupations.

 

[Submerge]

@Bruttall you are arguing from a position of disbelief, not evidence. In doing so, you are also ignoring basic facts. You continue to conflate the number of reported cases with total cases and wave away everything else as BS. While death is certainly possible, are documented cases of organ damage, ICU care, dead pets and sick children not enough?

The facts and bottom line here is simple.

1 - Palytoxin is classified as one of the most dangerous biological toxins on the planet.
2 - The toxin exists in a subset of the corals that we keep, but we can't be sure which ones.
3 - Exposure can be deadly.
4 - Ensure that people understand the facts so that they can act accordingly.

Information, training and awareness are absolutely paramount to safety. Those of you who aim to dismiss simple facts are doing so from a misguided perspective and it is putting people needlessly at risk.

This has nothing to do with instilling fear in anybody or predicting doomsday. It has everything to do with equipping people with facts so that they can make informed decisions.

I am going to draw a distinct parallel here.

Firearms are deadly by design and infinitely dangerous if mishandled. Risk is raised by exposure. That risk is mitigated by following unbending universal rules.

1 - All firearms are always to be considered loaded.
2 - Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3 - Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target
4 - Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

It would be patently irresponsible to tell people that firearms are not dangerous, or that accidents or near misses are overblown. Nothing could be further from the truth. The "safety" comes from acute awareness and un-diluted respect of the risk. Those who are ignorant of the risk, mislead about the danger or choose to ignore the facts are the ones most likely to be harmed or harm somebody else due to negligence.

We can draw similar parallels to high voltage and arc flash, lab work, construction or countless other hobbies or occupations.

When you pulled @Fish Styx in here and he told his story I bought scuba gloves a face shield and shoulder length gloves. Keep them on top of my maint tools now so I have to move them to work, I’ll learn to just put them on without thinking.

I guess I’m chicken little too. I’m good with that. Probably better for the organisms too keeping any chemicals on my hands from polluting the tank.

 

[Bruttall]

@Bruttall you are arguing from a position of disbelief, not evidence.

This is YOUR OPINION, I actually POSTED my sources for the evidence INCLUDING LINKS. I stated I am a SKEPTIC, You keep putting words in my mouth, STOP THAT!

Because I have a different opinion you keep trying to insinuate I am less smart than the Great BEAN.

THE FACTS ARE 177 confirmed diagnosed cases in 14 years with ZERO DEATHS, THESE ARE FACTS ALSO. Just because they do not Jive with YOUR NARRATIVE does not give you permission to belittle anyone. Yet you have attempted to do just that me at least 3 times in this thread. I USED TO RESPECT YOU. That is gone.

And this is not opinion, I posted this link in my post which I guess according to The GREAT BEAN isn't fact! SO much for me coming from a position of disbelief.

Yes, you offended me and insulted me Bean. kudo's.

 

[Bruttall]

This does not remove from the fact that I personally have experienced what I believe to be Palytoxin poisoning from handling of palygrandis corals, and the large numer of others who have reported similar effects.

You just kind of proved my statement earlier that a bunch of folks claiming to have had paly poisoning, were self diagnosed. Not saying you did not have it, you might have, but be honest, you don't know if you had it any more than I know if you had it, because you never went to the hospital, did you?
That is what I call FEAR Mongering.

Like Bean asking me why I am downplaying such a "serious issue" to which I counter, How can it be that serious with 177 reported cases in 14 year, and after providing links to source, I am muddying the waters and not operating from a position of fact or w/e because I disagree with him. Ok. his OPINION!

Toxic Green Grandis Paly from my tank, I have roughly 22 varieties of Zoa and 3 Paly, always looking for more.

So my asking about the name was also wanted to see if I had them, or maybe wanted them, in addition to calling BS on the Toxic AF part.
Sorry you think I am trolling, I stated pretty clearly what my intentions were. To add a Voice of Moderation and a little skepticism to what I see as a COVID LEVEL Fear mongering about an Issue that just....really.......isn't.......an.......issue!
BACKED UP BY A DISMAL Lack of data to support all the FEAR!
Again 177 cases in 14 years with zero deaths does not seem like an issue that needs to be promoted till people are terrified to buy zoa's, especially after we have, you, ME, ALL OF US, talked about the simple precautions you should take when handling them.

Now I understand this seems odd to see my opinion that Palytoxin Poisoning isn't that dangerous, when if you Google you see links that say "DEADLY ZOA TOXIN and how to avoid it" but how can something be deadly when there have been ZERO reported Deaths? And how can it be so common if there are only 177 documented reported cases in 14 years? That DATA doesn't Jive with the Narrative I am seeing. I call that Fear Mongering.

The troll is the guy who keeps putting words into my mouth telling me I do not have a FACTUAL BASE for my skepticism, after I posted links to MEDICAL SITES. but w/e.

I guess it comes down to this, If you want to live in fear of everything that Might Hurt you, go ahead. I choose a different path, one based not in fear, but in respect of the dangers and knowledge of ways to minimize the risk.

 

[Submerge]

You just kind of proved my statement earlier that a bunch of folks claiming to have had paly poisoning, were self diagnosed. Not saying you did not have it, you might have, but be honest, you don't know if you had it any more than I know if you had it, because you never went to the hospital, did you?
That is what I call FEAR Mongering.

Like Bean asking me why I am downplaying such a "serious issue" to which I counter, How can it be that serious with 177 reported cases in 14 year, and after providing links to source, I am muddying the waters and not operating from a position of fact or w/e because I disagree with him. Ok. his OPINION!

Toxic Green Grandis Paly from my tank, I have roughly 22 varieties of Zoa and 3 Paly, always looking for more.

So my asking about the name was also wanted to see if I had them, or maybe wanted them, in addition to calling BS on the Toxic AF part.
Sorry you think I am trolling, I stated pretty clearly what my intentions were. To add a Voice of Moderation and a little skepticism to what I see as a COVID LEVEL Fear mongering about an Issue that just....really.......isn't.......an.......issue!
BACKED UP BY A DISMAL Lack of data to support all the FEAR!
Again 177 cases in 14 years with zero deaths does not seem like an issue that needs to be promoted till people are terrified to buy zoa's, especially after we have, you, ME, ALL OF US, talked about the simple precautions you should take when handling them.

Now I understand this seems odd to see my opinion that Palytoxin Poisoning isn't that dangerous, when if you Google you see links that say "DEADLY ZOA TOXIN and how to avoid it" but how can something be deadly when there have been ZERO reported Deaths? And how can it be so common if there are only 177 documented reported cases in 14 years? That DATA doesn't Jive with the Narrative I am seeing. I call that Fear Mongering.

The troll is the guy who keeps putting words into my mouth telling me I do not have a FACTUAL BASE for my skepticism, after I posted links to MEDICAL SITES. but w/e.

I guess it comes down to this, If you want to live in fear of everything that Might Hurt you, go ahead. I choose a different path, one based not in fear, but in respect of the dangers and knowledge of ways to minimize the risk.

Did you not read the post by fish Styx? Or just think he is lying?

Confirmed case by a seasoned and well respected reefer who nearly lost his arm.

I for one do not need to read flawed and skewed google results to take it seriously. It doesn’t need to stack up hundreds of bodies to take precautions. You are the only one bringing up Covid in this - a logical fallacy called red herring.

Good luck to you. I don’t see us ever crossing paths again. Respect goes both ways.

 

[Bruttall]

Did you not read the post by fish Styx? Or just think he is lying?

Confirmed case by a seasoned and well respected reefer who nearly lost his arm.

I for one do not need to read flawed and skewed google results to take it seriously. It doesn’t need to stack up hundreds of bodies to take precautions. You are the only one bringing up Covid in this - a logical fallacy called red herring.

Good luck to you. I don’t see us ever crossing paths again. Respect goes both ways.

Ok, first off what Fish Styx had was NOT palytoxin Poisoning, you need to go re-read his post.
If ya look back at my posts, I think I mentioned this Bacterial Type as well.
This is what Fish said he had,
Vibrio vulnificus infection, also known as vibriosis, is caused by a bacterium found in warm coastal waters and can lead to severe illness, particularly after consuming raw or undercooked shellfish or through exposure of open wounds to contaminated water. Symptoms may include vomiting, diarrhea, and in severe cases, necrotizing fasciitis or sepsis, which can be life-threatening if not treated promptly.

What makes Fish more seasoned or respected than anyone else, Paul B. Or Vetteguy, or me?

I did not read skewed google results, I referenced google as a source of the Fear because Google uses loaded descriptions like, DEADLY ZOA TOXIN, when there have been zero deaths, so how can it be deadly? Sorry you misunderstood that. Hope this explains it.

Show me the HUNDREDS OF BODIES STACKED UP, again zero reported deaths due to palytoxin. <-- Talk about Logical Fallacy, you're attributing the deaths of Hundreds to a substance that hasn't killed anyone we know of, but can be harmful to your health, can cause respiratory issues and can cause blindness, did I miss anything here?

 

[BeanAnimal]

This is YOUR OPINION, I actually POSTED my sources for the evidence INCLUDING LINKS. I stated I am a SKEPTIC, You keep putting words in my mouth, STOP THAT!

Because I have a different opinion you keep trying to insinuate I am less smart than the Great BEAN.

THE FACTS ARE 177 confirmed diagnosed cases in 14 years with ZERO DEATHS, THESE ARE FACTS ALSO. Just because they do not Jive with YOUR NARRATIVE does not give you permission to belittle anyone. Yet you have attempted to do just that me at least 3 times in this thread. I USED TO RESPECT YOU. That is gone.

And this is not opinion, I posted this link in my post which I guess according to The GREAT BEAN isn't fact! SO much for me coming from a position of disbelief.

Yes, you offended me and insulted me Bean. kudo's.

You continue to keep repeating “177 confirmed cases in 14 years” and “zero deaths” as if that statistic somehow represents a low relative danger.

Those are reported cases in a poison center database.

The fact is that Palytoxin isn’t routinely tested for, and even with serious effects, most people don’t recognize it or report it. The fact is that most doctors don’t have the tools or understanding to recognize it. Resting your opinion on the reported cases statistic and a single cherry picked webpage is problematic. Using that opinion to downplay the danger, while ignoring the actual facts about palytoxin, is irresponsible.

The issue here has nothing to do with statistics, it has everything to do with the acute danger for the person who does end up with a palytoxin laden coral. Because we don’t know which are, then we must treat them all with the same respect. If that “narrative” makes you angry, then I suggest you rethink you position.

I am not interested in winning your respect, nor am I trying to anger you. My interest is in making sure people have accurate information so they don’t get hurt. What is your interest in downplaying the danger?

 

[Bruttall]

I am not interested in winning your respect, nor am I trying to anger you. My interest is in making sure people have accurate information so they don’t get hurt. What is your interest in downplaying the danger?

Why do you have to PLAY UP the dangers? Why is a Voice of Moderation and Reason being shouted down by your fear?

AS to why I keep mentioning 177 cases, well because THOSE ARE THE ONLY FACTS!
You Know! Documented Cases we have that everyone can study.

Are we supposed to study the (X amount) of unreported, undocumented cases you claim exist? WHY?

You claim I don't use FACTS, but that is all I have used while you have used FEAR and Unreported Cases that Doctors don't know how to test for?

Have a nice day Bean.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Why do you have to PLAY UP the dangers? Why is a Voice of Moderation and Reason being shouted down by your fear?

You’re confusing the promotion of awareness with fear mongering. This isn’t about “playing up” danger or dissuading people from keeping these corals; it’s about making sure people understand the underlying risk in doing so. The real voice of moderation is the promotion of informed awareness.

 

[Bruttall]

You’re confusing the promotion of awareness with fear mongering. This isn’t about “playing up” danger or dissuading people from keeping these corals; it’s about making sure people understand the underlying risk in doing so. The real voice of moderation is the promotion of informed awareness.

Your Opinion.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Your Opinion.

At this point, you’re just trolling to save face.

 

[TankYouVeryMuch]

Your Opinion.

At this point, you’re just trolling to save face.

I don’t think anyone is trolling, but I think the strength of some of the arguments makes it look like they might be.

There’s more than enough information in this post for some people to come away with a healthy respect, and for the rest of the people I just hope if they learn this particular lesson it doesn’t cause any permanent damage.

 

[TankYouVeryMuch]

I’m going to conclude with some peer-reviewed research:

> We present a case report detailing the experiences of two expert marine biologists who inadvertently came into contact with palytoxin while handling marine organisms in a controlled environment. Shortly after exposure, both biologists developed severe keratoconjunctivitis, characterized by acute inflammation of the conjunctiva and cornea. Clinical manifestations included intense ocular pain, photophobia, conjunctival injection, and corneal epithelial defects, with symptoms progressing rapidly post exposure. […] This report underscores the importance of stringent adherence to safety protocols and awareness among marine biologists regarding the risks associated with palytoxin exposure, emphasizing the need for prompt recognition and appropriate management of ocular manifestations to minimize potential long-term sequelae.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/385323108_Coral_Crisis_Palytoxin-Induced_Keratoconjunctivitis_in_Marine_Experts

> Evaluation of palytoxin toxicity using various animal models revealed that palytoxin is an extremely potent neurotoxin following an intravenous, intraperitoneal, intramuscular, subcutaneous or intratracheal route of exposure. Palytoxin also causes non-lethal, yet serious toxic effects following dermal or ocular exposure. Most incidents of palytoxin poisoning have manifested after oral intake of contaminated seafood. Poisonings in humans have also been noted after inhalation, cutaneous/systemic exposures with direct contact of aerosolized seawater during Ostreopsis blooms and/or through maintaining aquaria containing Cnidarian zoanthids. Palytoxin has a strong potential for toxicity in humans and animals, and currently this toxin is of great concern worldwide

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283649641_Toxic_potential_of_palytoxin

> This case report describes the therapeutic management of a 61-year-old male who experienced aquarium coral keratoconjunctivitis caused by exposure to palytoxin and provides an additional resource to raise awareness and treat patients with ocular exposure to palytoxin.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/358040402_Case_Report_Aquarium_Palytoxin_Induced_Keratoconjunctivitis

> Palytoxin is highly toxic and can affect multiple organs causing severe symptoms including death. Palytoxin poisoning is mainly developed after ingesting seafood. We are reporting a case of suspected inhalational palytoxin poisoning in a healthy healthcare provider from who developed severe respiratory distress within 12 hours of exposure to vapors. We have highlighted diagnostic clues and clinical features in the patients' history that may help intensivists to diagnose a case of ARDS secondary to palytoxin poisoning.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309366425_Palytoxin-induced_acute_respiratory_failure

> In this study, the chronic toxicity of palytoxin was evaluated after oral administration to mice by gavage during a 28-day period. After chronic exposure of mice to the toxin, a lethal dose 50 (LD50) of 0.44 µg/kg of PLTX and a No-Observed-Adverse-Effect Level (NOAEL) of 0.03 µg/kg for repeated daily oral administration of PLTX were determined. These results indicate a much higher chronic toxicity of PLTX and a lower NOAEL than that previously described in shorter treatment periods, pointing out the need to further reevaluate the levels of this compound in marine products.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343339500_In_Vivo_Evaluation_of_the_Chronic_Oral_Toxicity_of_the_Marine_Toxin_Palytoxin

 

[Bruttall]

> Palytoxin is highly toxic and can affect multiple organs causing severe symptoms including death.

This type of wording is what I was talking about. Trying to raise awareness about this is exceedingly difficult. Even though people read, a lot of times they fail to grasp the Intent of the words. Half of this statement is patently true, the other half is speculative at best and can't be backed up with any evidence. There have been Zero Reported Deaths from Palytoxin.

Sure it kills Mice, in a controlled Lab Experiment. My question, what are the chances of that mouse being exposed to that large of a dose of Toxin during what I will call Human Type Interaction, Or is that a Massively large dose compared to what Human Type Interaction would generate handling those Corals?

Ya I am kind of a hardliner on this, I admit it, but I do not think it is fair to call anything DEADLY when it hasn't killed anyone. IMO That's like calling a Participation Trophy First Place.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Except

This type of wording is what I was talking about. Trying to raise awareness about this is exceedingly difficult.

It is difficult because people such as yourself continue to downplay the danger.

, the other half is speculative at best and can't be backed up with any evidence. There have been Zero Reported Deaths from Palytoxin. Sure it kills Mice, in a controlled Lab Experiment. My question, what are the chances of that mouse being exposed to that large of a dose of Toxin during what I will call Human Type Interaction

You are literally saying you don’t know, while at the same time arguing it is not “deadly”, even after relevant facts about palytoxin toxicology have been laid out in front of you.

The word “Deadly” describes potential lethality and has absolutely nothing to do with body count.

Palytoxin has an LD50 that is one of the lowest ever recorded. It is globally recognized as one of the most lethal (non protein) toxins on the planet. It shares the podium with things like botulinum and saxitoxin. There is no “massive” dose required. Go read and understand LD50 in mammals before making claims and using them to downplay something like this.

If you want to argue that statistical exposure in an aquarium may be low, that is one thing, but to continue to spread misinformation about the toxicology of palytoxin, given the known and readily available science, is dangerous and irresponsible.

You are telling people to rely on luck and they will be safe. What happens to the reef keeper and/or their family when their luck runs out and they happily handle palytoxin laden coral because you people like you convinced them not to worry?

You talk about taking a hardline? My hard line is protecting people from misinformation spread by those more concerned with being right than being accurate.

 

[TankYouVeryMuch]

Except

This type of wording is what I was talking about. Trying to raise awareness about this is exceedingly difficult.

It is difficult because people such as yourself continue to downplay the danger.

, the other half is speculative at best and can't be backed up with any evidence. There have been Zero Reported Deaths from Palytoxin. Sure it kills Mice, in a controlled Lab Experiment. My question, what are the chances of that mouse being exposed to that large of a dose of Toxin during what I will call Human Type Interaction

You are literally saying you don’t know, while at the same time arguing it is not “deadly”, even after relevant facts about palytoxin toxicology have been laid out in front of you.

The word “Deadly” describes potential lethality and has absolutely nothing to do with body count.

Palytoxin has an LD50 that is one of the lowest ever recorded. It is globally recognized as one of the most lethal (non protein) toxins on the planet. It shares the podium with things like botulinum and saxitoxin. There is no “massive” dose required. Go read and understand LD50 in mammals before making claims and using them to downplay something like this.

If you want to argue that statistical exposure in an aquarium may be low, that is one thing, but to continue to spread misinformation about the toxicology of palytoxin, given the known and readily available science, is dangerous and irresponsible.

You are telling people to rely on luck and they will be safe. What happens to the reef keeper and/or their family when their luck runs out and they happily handle palytoxin laden coral because you people like you convinced them not to worry?

You talk about taking a hardline? My hard line is protecting people from misinformation spread by those more concerned with being right than being accurate.

I ended up just using the Ignore User button lest I win the argument by making someone else feel bad.

 

[Submerge]

I ended up just using the Ignore User button lest I win the argument by making someone else feel bad.

Same. I picked a side long ago.

Make it just a part of the process and make it easy. All that stuff was less than an er copay.

Used it today to bring my cryptic zone online

It will take some getting used to. I filled my surgical gloves up twice now. Was kinda funny. They are not very effective for anything where your hands get really wet. I had to upgrade to scuba gloves for normal stuff and the long gloves when going elbow deep.

My takeaway is I am not smart enough to know all the potential dangers in my tank beyond even Palytoxin. There is chemical and biological warfare going on, of that I am sure. If someone tries to tell me they know there is no danger they are not a person to be taken seriously.

So what is your health worth to you?

I’m trying to get in the headspace that my animals may have VD that would be hard to explain to the wife so better play protected.