sixty_reefer
5000 Club Member
how would the algae compete with the tank cycling?
Planted Tank with Seahorses
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how would the algae compete with the tank cycling?
sixty_reefer
5000 Club Member
Probably just let it ride it out for the time being it may go as the tank matured. Have you been monitoring no2 and no3
Hyde2406
Well-Known Member
OP
OP
minorhero
Active Member
In freshwater you plant right away and it actually helps the cycle go faster because 1) the plants are themselves surface area for bacteria, and 2) the plants will eat ammonia and nitrite so a healthy plant mass also acts as part of the biological filter. I am running with the same assumptions for saltwater but I can't exactly point to a mountain of experience there. So far the cycle appears to be proceeding at what I would consider a normal pace. I would expect it to finish up in the next week, but we will see.
I have actually seen the video you linked before. I like the BRS content but did not see anything that directly applies to me, unless I am missing something? This is all kind of an adventure for me so I very well could be missing something.
Your experience is definitely why I am staying away from dwarf seahorses. I am planning to keep captive bred Erectus which is a much larger seahorse. They eat frozen mysis shrimp. While they are happy to eat live food as well like guppy fry, ghost shrimp, etc. They mostly eat frozen mysis. I am not planning on breeding them either. After thinking about it for a while I've decided to go with 2 females. One might change to a male, but I will at least make an effort not to have fry so I don't need to go down the path of needing to hatch brine shrimp daily.
The rock was rescued from the wild, specifically a freshwater stream on a friends property. Its granite and completely inert. I know folks are used to relying on live/dry rock (either taken from the ocean or artificially created to look like it was taken from the ocean) for their biological filtration, but I think what I have in the tank plus my sand bed will provide enough surface area for bacteria. It certainly would in a freshwater tank but, again no experience in saltwater so I could be wrong and the cycle might not complete without something in the sump.
The wood will definitely leach some tannins into the water but given the kh it won't affect anything in a noticeable way. In freshwater its pretty normal to use wood like this (Malaysian driftwood) in a tank but in saltwater I have found only a handful of people that have done it before. That handful did not indicate any difficulties though. One thing going for me is that I have no plans to keep corals so I don't need to be as sterile as other tanks.
Thank you, that makes it easy ;P
I have been checking in on nitrite and nitrate once I noticed the ammonia starting to go down below 2ppm. It's been pretty stable with nitrite at 2 and nitrate at 10. The nitrate reading doesn't mean much though since I am actively dosing macro fertilizer in this tank.
By way of a tiny update, as of tonight the API ammonia test is either reading .25 or less for ammonia. This is the first I have seen it move lower then .5 since starting the cycle. Nitrite is still at 2 though so I definitely am not quite there yet.
hikermike
Active Member
I'm being sarcastic here; but I hope the CO2 proves non-contributory, because if it succeeds, it'l start a whole new series of discussions and another complication to an already complicated hobby! Good luck.. Have wanted to try grass also, but it actually needs substrate for some nutrition and not just anchoring as in our macroalgae. Here in the NW our eelgrass beds are mud..what are they where you are? need lots of light I think I saw a power head in your supplies and that's good as the horses actually need flow as well as the grass. It's going to be fun watching this grow...remember, it may take a year or two but it will work out. Some fish die when you add them early but then a year later you try them out again and they last for years.
OP
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minorhero
Active Member
I've not really been able to do any kind of examination of natural seagrass in the wild. There seems to be so many people here who are also into scuba diving or at least snorkeling but in Maryland our waters do not really lend themselves to either. The only time I have ever seen a natural seagrass bed was years and years ago in the Caribbean and at the time having a saltwater tank of any type was pretty far from my mind.
That said, I go hiking several times weekly and see native aquatic freshwater plants all the time. Most streams are either sand, mud, or a mix of both depending on how fast the flow is. If you are in a place with aquatic plants then they grow in anything.
In the freshwater world 30 years ago most people growing plants in their tanks were using dirt under a relatively deep sand bed. While there were fertilizers available very few people used them, they were complicated, and expensive. So dirt was a good option for having nutrients in your tank. Reading threads from the few people that I've found keeping seagrass is like going back in time in the freshwater world. Its all mud and deep sand beds.
Its very possible that this is the only way to grow the plant, but I strongly suspect that it will grow great in normal planting depths (as in 1.5 to 2 inches) and so long as nutrients are supplied to the tank I suspect the grass will be fine. BUT I don't actually know
so we will find out. And in the meantime I will be dosing macro and micro fertilizers just like in a freshwater tank in the assumption that a plant is a plant regardless of freshwater or saltwater.Regarding light, this is again a bit of a mystery. I read one article that said they needed 250 ppfd to grow but they did not mention where that was measured. In the freshwater world we measure ppfd at substrate level. But in the saltwater world people measure it at the location of a specific coral they want to grow. So is the 250 ppfd at substrate? Or is it midway up the stalk of the seagrass? Or at the top of the stalk?
My tank has a range of light measured at substrate, from 270 ppfd in the back middle to 80 in the front corner. I have seagrass all over and I'm watching it pretty closely to see where it grows / doesn't grow.
Regarding flow, I'm hoping to do this without a powerhead in the tank. This might be futile, but I'm hoping! I have two random flow generator nozzles on my return lines and I am putting out about 20x tank turnover per hour. Between those two things I am hoping to be in a good place for the seahorses. If I can't get there then I will need to re-evaluate and add a powerhead.
The co2 addition I actually feel the most confident about. That's because I'm not the first to do this by any means. There is at least one person on another forum currently running a seagrass tank who is injecting co2 into his tank and I have his experience to guide me. There is another person on this forum with pretty sophisticated macro algae tanks injecting co2 and has had great results. At the end of the day, photosynthesis is photosynthesis and it needs carbon to do its thing and it likes co2 most of all.
OP
OP
minorhero
Active Member
Update:
Cycle is pretty much done but in the meantime, its time to talk about filters!
For the past few weeks I've had the most horrible of diy options for filtration. Literally a media bag with some poly-fil stuffed in it cinched closed around my siphon return. Sort of a poor mans filter sock? Well it was horrible. It was also just going to be temporary until I could get my new filter roller.
As luck would have it I was in contact with a local fish store about the new Red Sea Reefmat when they got their order in. I quickly reserved mine to be picked up the following day. I'm glad I did because they only got in 4 units and the other 3 were sold within 2 hours.
When I did go to pick it up the next day there was even a random person there asking to buy one, and the store clerk themselves was telling them that they wanted one for their personal tank whenever they next got a shipment in.
After this byplay I announced I was there to pick mine up. I earned jealous looks all around
Tada
Here is what was in the box:
And here it is after a quick and dirty install:
I will definitely need to do a more thorough install down the line. For one thing only my siphon line is even in play currently. For another even my siphon line is only, 'mostly' installed on the unit. But its still better then the darn media bag with filter floss.
Initial impressions is that the unit is pretty darn solid. Extremely pleased with my purchase. Also the paper directions are mostly worthless. Fortunately this video was EXTREMELY helpful in setting it up:
That's all for now. Later I will post more about the upcoming clean up crew.
Cycle is pretty much done but in the meantime, its time to talk about filters!
For the past few weeks I've had the most horrible of diy options for filtration. Literally a media bag with some poly-fil stuffed in it cinched closed around my siphon return. Sort of a poor mans filter sock? Well it was horrible. It was also just going to be temporary until I could get my new filter roller.
As luck would have it I was in contact with a local fish store about the new Red Sea Reefmat when they got their order in. I quickly reserved mine to be picked up the following day. I'm glad I did because they only got in 4 units and the other 3 were sold within 2 hours.
When I did go to pick it up the next day there was even a random person there asking to buy one, and the store clerk themselves was telling them that they wanted one for their personal tank whenever they next got a shipment in.
After this byplay I announced I was there to pick mine up. I earned jealous looks all around
Tada
Here is what was in the box:
And here it is after a quick and dirty install:
I will definitely need to do a more thorough install down the line. For one thing only my siphon line is even in play currently. For another even my siphon line is only, 'mostly' installed on the unit. But its still better then the darn media bag with filter floss.
Initial impressions is that the unit is pretty darn solid. Extremely pleased with my purchase. Also the paper directions are mostly worthless. Fortunately this video was EXTREMELY helpful in setting it up:
That's all for now. Later I will post more about the upcoming clean up crew.
MeaCulpa
New Member
Im
Okay Im dying for an update please!
Update:
Cycle is pretty much done but in the meantime, its time to talk about filters!
For the past few weeks I've had the most horrible of diy options for filtration. Literally a media bag with some poly-fil stuffed in it cinched closed around my siphon return. Sort of a poor mans filter sock? Well it was horrible. It was also just going to be temporary until I could get my new filter roller.
As luck would have it I was in contact with a local fish store about the new Red Sea Reefmat when they got their order in. I quickly reserved mine to be picked up the following day. I'm glad I did because they only got in 4 units and the other 3 were sold within 2 hours.
When I did go to pick it up the next day there was even a random person there asking to buy one, and the store clerk themselves was telling them that they wanted one for their personal tank whenever they next got a shipment in.
After this byplay I announced I was there to pick mine up. I earned jealous looks all around
Tada
Here is what was in the box:
And here it is after a quick and dirty install:
I will definitely need to do a more thorough install down the line. For one thing only my siphon line is even in play currently. For another even my siphon line is only, 'mostly' installed on the unit. But its still better then the darn media bag with filter floss.
Initial impressions is that the unit is pretty darn solid. Extremely pleased with my purchase. Also the paper directions are mostly worthless. Fortunately this video was EXTREMELY helpful in setting it up:
That's all for now. Later I will post more about the upcoming clean up crew.
Okay Im dying for an update please!
HawaiiTime
Community Member
looking forward to seeing your completed project pictures with the seahorses you add!Hello folks!
This is going to be a bit different from most of the saltwater tanks on here and elsewhere because when I say it's a planted tank, I do not mean macro algae. This will be a true planted tank with Manatee Grass (Syringodium filiforme), Shoal Grass (Halodule wrightii), and Red Mangroves (Rhizophora mangle). The livestock will be a pair of seahorses (Hippocampus erectus) plus a pretty extensive clean up crew.
I have been waiting on doing this thread until I got my tank situation resolved. Originally I planned to literally make the tank myself. And in fact I did just that. The results however are horrific ;P I thought I could do a good job with the silicone but... not so much. So yesterday I ordered the tank from Glass Cages. The tank will be rimless and 24"x18"x24"H with black silicone. I went with Glass Cages mostly because of all the positive recent reviews with their changes in quality control and customer service. So with the tank situation sorted it was time to start this build journal.
As a bit about me, I have decades of experience with freshwater tanks but zero experience with saltwater. So this whole thing will be an adventure for me. I have always admired saltwater tanks but the idea of actually taking care of the corals has not (and still does not) appeal to me. Freshwater planted tanks on the other hand have been a passion of mine for the last few years.
So when I was at the Baltimore Aquarium last year and saw an exhibit consisting of seahorses with live seagrass, I was completely entranced. I took a few pictures, but you can't really see the seagrass other then a field of green in the background:
The exhibit really stuck in my mind, and after some research, I decided I wanted to replicate the idea, but make it even better.
First thing to consider was placement. I wanted the tank to go into my office next to my Freshwater High Tech Newt Tank. This is why the Seahorse tank has the 24x18x24 dimensions. I wanted it to match the footprint of the Newt Tank but with more vertical space for the Seahorses (since they are apparently one of those weird fish that actually prefer vertical space over horizontal). The Newt Tank is sitting on a 40 gallon petco metal stand that I heavily modified. In order for the Seahorse tank to match I needed to replicate the stand.
After purchasing the stand and assembly, I drilled and tapped holes in the bottom of the stand and used grade 8 bolts and steel brackets to attach steel C channel to run the width of the stand. This will be the support for a shelf that will hold the sump. I also attached plywood to the sides for both aesthetic and subsequent plumbing attachment purposes. The door I made is held on with magnets so its pretty easy to remove.
The stand is designed for a rimmed 40 breeder to sit directly on top. But the Seahorse tank, like the Newt Tank, is a rimless tank and has a smaller footprint. So I needed to make a top for it.
For the Newt Tank I made a poured concrete top, and that's what I did for the Seahorse tank as well. First thing to do was make the form out of 3/4 melamine.
Then I mixed up a batch of Rapidset Mortar Mix, added some color, and poured it.
Somewhere along the way my maths were all messed up. I thought 3/4 of a bag of mortar would be enough for the whole thing but it was a bit short. So I needed to very quickly mix up another partial bag and pour that as well (the stuff sets up in like 20 minutes). In my rush I did not mix in enough coloring agent so the result was a very ugly top ;P I decided to fix the issue by painting it.
And here is the whole stand next to the Newt Tank.
As far as the rest of the equipment plan. Well I have ordered a LOT of stuff and its trickling in now:
The plan for the filtration will be a diy sump which will just be a regular Aqueon 20H. It will have a roller filter (hopefully the new Red Sea ReefMat when it is released) and 2 return pumps. One return pump will go directly to the tank. The other will have a bypass which will include a CO2 Reactor (for all the plants) and a 15w Aqua Ultraviolet UV Sterilizer. I'll have a ball valve on the bypass and the main line to control flow through the reactor/uv.
When I get the tank from Glass Cages I will drill it for use with a 1200 g/h Modular Marine overflow as well as two 3/4" returns. The overflow will have bean animal style plumbing. For the returns I purchased a pair of random flow generators.
In order to light the tank I will be building a bracket on the wall that will overhang the tank out of 3/8" galvanized steel pipe. The light itself will be a used Viparspectra I will be buying from an acquaintance.
The ATO will be a 5 gallon plastic jerry can (I am going to have space issues) and a gravity fed float valve installed with an over the rim hanging bracket.
Another weird thing about this tank, I am going to be dosing fertilizer. The plants need a good mix of macro and micro nutrients to stay healthy. Most historical threads I have found using seagrass have solved this issue through fish poop, deep sand beds, and sometimes mud. The freshwater community used to solve their plant food issues this way as well. But more modern methods in freshwater has led to the formulation of fertilizers which have proved more successful and significantly cleaner. I am going to be dosing those fertilizers here. Specifically I will be using Nicolg Thrive dry salts and dosed according to the PPS-PRO method. My dosing bottles are Voss Water Bottles. I found that bike water bottle holders will hold these Voss bottles really well and will be using a pair to hold the dosing bottles on the side of the stand. The doser is a Jebao 3.4 WIFI Doser. I have this model doser on a freshwater tank and have found it to do a great job. The only problem is the wifi setup is truly atrocious. I had to create (and still keep) a guest 2.4ghz wifi in my house named.. WIFI, just to make it work. It's pretty annoying but once it was setup, its run without issue for more then 2 years now.
For heating... nothing. Seahorses apparently do better in the cold. Ideal temperature range is 68 to 72 degrees F. The room they are in runs in that same range year round. If anything I will be worried about my 2 dc pumps heating the water too much. If I can't keep it under 72 I will install a small fan over the sump to turn on when the temperature gets too hot. I use a small fan over the newt tank currently and let it run 24/7. It reduces the newt tank temperature to the mid 60s year round.
For water, I originally was going to just use tap water. But after a lot of thinking, and a bit of research, I decided to bite the bullet and get a RODI system. I bought the 5 stage water saver on BRS. I am on the Baltimore water system despite being 30 minutes outside of the city, and my water is surface water from a reservoir. My water is relatively soft with a TDS of 80-120 but its constantly changing with the seasons. So I figured better to be safe and just get a RODI.
My storage tanks are two 32 gallon BRUTE trash cans on wheels. I actually think my RODI is coming today so I'll take pictures of the setup once I get it installed.
And... I think that brings this up to current. I am pretty excited about this build and looking forward to learning more about saltwater as I go. I won't be rushing to add the seahorses either. After I get the tank up and running I will bring in the clean-up crew and get the hang of saltwater for a bit. After a few months of running the tank nice and stable, then I will bring in the seahorses.
Eric R.
Well-Known Member
Figured I'd share an update here, in case anyone was interested. Unfortunately, the build was unsuccessful and was torn down in favor of a freshwater crayfish tank.
TLDR; didn't like maintenance/WCs for SW tanks, had bad algae problems, had trouble keeping CUC alive.
www.plantedtank.net
TLDR; didn't like maintenance/WCs for SW tanks, had bad algae problems, had trouble keeping CUC alive.
Saltwater Planted Tank With Seahorses!
Gumbies R Us
Another Fish in the Sea
Any updates on your tank?
Eric R.
Well-Known Member
See my post above for an update on this tank from minorhero on a different site that they are more active on. Not sure @minorhero is active on r2r anymore.
afrokobe
Valuable Member
every time I see one of these builds with alternative materials it never goes well. everyone always warns the OP ahead of time and over time strange algae issues come up. Just stick to what works, reefing is hard enough as is. You dont need to make it more complicatedFigured I'd share an update here, in case anyone was interested. Unfortunately, the build was unsuccessful and was torn down in favor of a freshwater crayfish tank.
TLDR; didn't like maintenance/WCs for SW tanks, had bad algae problems, had trouble keeping CUC alive.
Saltwater Planted Tank With Seahorses!
Big Smelly fish
If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
I just found this thread and read it all , sorry if didn’t work out for you.
OP
OP
minorhero
Active Member
Should probably update this now that a suitable period of mourning has gone by
Sooooooooo
It didn't work.
Why? Well I strongly suspect the freshwater method of dosing is what did it in. The tank was actively toxic to saltwater life. Snails introduced to the tank became lethargic and died within a week or 2. Because the snails were not doing well, I never introduced more advanced forms of life so that at least is good.
I was however, extremely disappointed with this tank. Not only was it an ongoing disaster for months with the combination of not being able to keep things alive in it, but also the algae went bonkers in it.
Meanwhile the grass was alive... but not exactly flourishing. I mean it was growing, but in order to keep it growing quickly, I was blasting the lights and dosing a lot of fertilizer which just made the algae go nuts.
In a freshwater tank I know what to do in this scenario. Plant more quick growing plants. But I couldn't do that here because there weren't any other quick growing plants. In retrospect, I should have introduced macro algae as well to absorb the excess nutrients while the plants were busy growing, but I was deadset against having macro in quantity in this tank.
Anyway.... I eventually emptied the tank. This is what it looked like at that point:
I now had a custom tank with sump but no desire to turn it into a saltwater tank again.
Why?
Well the maintenance routine with saltwater tank was not fun for me.
I do 70+% water changes on all my freshwater tanks once a week. I was doing that with this tank as well. That's a lot of RODI water to make, mix, drain, and refill each week and frankly.... I did not like it. Wheeling my 50 gallon brute around through my basement each week. Messing with the pump in it to push the water into the tank.. I just did not enjoy the process. With my freshwater tanks, I actively enjoy maintenance day. It's why I have so many tanks. I using a python directly hooked up to my sink, I can drain and refill the freshwater tanks with essentially no fuss.
So I turned the tank into a freshwater tank. I ended up using it as a crayfish tank. The tank has gone through some plant evolutions as I figure out what works best, but here is how it looked after introducing my p. alleni to it:
Things are generally going quite well for it. BUT I feel the call of saltwater once more. And that brought me back to this forum and this thread. When this tank first failed, I was too upset by how BADLY it went to update this thread. But enough time has passed that I have gained a bit of perspective.
So what's next?
Well this tank will remain a freshwater tank for the foreseeable future. I will in the coming weeks be getting a 3 to 5 gallon pico tank and will use that as my entry point back into saltwater. Why such a tiny tank? Well I still like the idea of doing giant water changes. That's a lot easier when I am only changing 2 to 3 gallons of water a week instead of changing 30 to 40 gallons a week. Once I get the tank, I will make a new build thread.
Sooooooooo
It didn't work.
Why? Well I strongly suspect the freshwater method of dosing is what did it in. The tank was actively toxic to saltwater life. Snails introduced to the tank became lethargic and died within a week or 2. Because the snails were not doing well, I never introduced more advanced forms of life so that at least is good.
I was however, extremely disappointed with this tank. Not only was it an ongoing disaster for months with the combination of not being able to keep things alive in it, but also the algae went bonkers in it.
Meanwhile the grass was alive... but not exactly flourishing. I mean it was growing, but in order to keep it growing quickly, I was blasting the lights and dosing a lot of fertilizer which just made the algae go nuts.
In a freshwater tank I know what to do in this scenario. Plant more quick growing plants. But I couldn't do that here because there weren't any other quick growing plants. In retrospect, I should have introduced macro algae as well to absorb the excess nutrients while the plants were busy growing, but I was deadset against having macro in quantity in this tank.
Anyway.... I eventually emptied the tank. This is what it looked like at that point:
I now had a custom tank with sump but no desire to turn it into a saltwater tank again.
Why?
Well the maintenance routine with saltwater tank was not fun for me.
I do 70+% water changes on all my freshwater tanks once a week. I was doing that with this tank as well. That's a lot of RODI water to make, mix, drain, and refill each week and frankly.... I did not like it. Wheeling my 50 gallon brute around through my basement each week. Messing with the pump in it to push the water into the tank.. I just did not enjoy the process. With my freshwater tanks, I actively enjoy maintenance day. It's why I have so many tanks. I using a python directly hooked up to my sink, I can drain and refill the freshwater tanks with essentially no fuss.
So I turned the tank into a freshwater tank. I ended up using it as a crayfish tank. The tank has gone through some plant evolutions as I figure out what works best, but here is how it looked after introducing my p. alleni to it:
Things are generally going quite well for it. BUT I feel the call of saltwater once more. And that brought me back to this forum and this thread. When this tank first failed, I was too upset by how BADLY it went to update this thread. But enough time has passed that I have gained a bit of perspective.
So what's next?
Well this tank will remain a freshwater tank for the foreseeable future. I will in the coming weeks be getting a 3 to 5 gallon pico tank and will use that as my entry point back into saltwater. Why such a tiny tank? Well I still like the idea of doing giant water changes. That's a lot easier when I am only changing 2 to 3 gallons of water a week instead of changing 30 to 40 gallons a week. Once I get the tank, I will make a new build thread.
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