Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[rockskimmerflow]

When I read the many apoplectic and incredulous responses that 'oh my how could he say it's the cause of all RTN' I think some people are missing the interpretation potential of that statement. I do not have any communicae with the Dr. but from the bit that I've read so far there seems to be a disconnect in that many people are crediting param swings, light stress, and other events that could often precipitate a coral or multiple corals exhibiting RTN symptoms. Now, is the Dr. saying that RTN, as in the tissue loss itself, is caused by the philaster parasite regardless of the initial impetus for them to gain infection in the coral? Or is the contention that every RTN event is actually induced by an overabundance of these parasites in a given system with other tank issues/stressors being only coincidental and potentially concurrent rather than contributive? This is what I'd like to know.

I'm honestly shocked how dismissive many posters seem. It's not as if someone is pointing a gun at anyone's head to buy the stuff. Heck we spend boku bucks on all kinds of equipment and other tank stuff that may improve our reefs with no guarantees of success. I see this as something that may hold potential benefit. Let's wait til there's more data before we start saying this is snake oil. I for one don't feel we have enough info in either direction to make a solid determination in the matter.

 

[Cory]

This is great news! Thanks for posting.

 

[BigJohnny]

Those tests are what I’m interested in seeing to prove such hard to accept claims- even though it seems to have help me or the coincidence was uncanny

FWIW he’s a very accredited spinal doctor I don’t believe money is the motivation, I’ve spoken to him quite a few times initially

Money is definitely the primary motivation imo but let's assume you are right and im not and his sole motivation is to help people. That would mean that he's not smart enough to realize the obvious possibility that it's not the sole cause of stn/rtn and therefore loses credibility that way. Either way hes not credible. My b.s. meter shot through the roof when I heard his schtick on that video, and it's never failed me before. Watch it again and listen to all the assumptions and contradictions.

As expected hes not a biologist or anything related to the field, "spinal doctor" is pretty vague. That could mean chiropractor to orthopedist to neurosurgeon etc, all of which are unrelated to the field. Hes certainly not a research scientist and intentionally jumps to conclusions, therefore bypassing the scientific method, in order to try and sell his product.

Have you looked at the website? It's a joke. All caps everywhere, at one point claims all rtn/stn is caused by some parasite then goes on to say it's the "leading cause" on the same page. Well which is it dr. ? The only cause or the leading cause? Are you telling me you see no red flags?

Like I said, there is some truth to what he says and the product may work in some instances, but he has zero credibility in my book. I'm glad you think it may have worked for you though.

It's a shame he/prime coral is approaching it this way because they'd be much more respected and well received if they just said "look, we believe this is one cause of stn/rtn and we've developed a product to combat it. Here is our research".

 

[jda]

Those products that MAY improve our reef get clowned by the masses and supported by the fanboys too. Any of the UWC stuff is like this. This seems like a pretty consistent response for this board.

To me, this is the definition of snake oil... claims that are too broad, no reasonable argument to be made that the scientific method was followed, for profit and statement inconsistencies. The only larger red flag is if there was "red flannel" in it.



It could work and it could end up being awesome. If it does, my guess is that it will be more because of luck than actual scientific R&D. I hope that it does.

 

[Altan]

Not True !!! I had a fire fish that the bristle worm rooked around and stuck him with hundreds of the needles. He live for a few hrs after that took place !!!

 

[Reefahholic]

Were you active in the FB thread?

Thanks for the explanation too.

I was not, but quickly heard about his claims from several people and found it super interesting.

 

[Reefahholic]

The theory is intriguing, especially because we already see this with fish. You can have a tank that has a chronic level of ich or velvet parasites but the fish have built up resistance. It takes one stressful event and half of the fish show signs of an advanced parasitic infection and die within day(s). Sometimes the fish can still fight off the parasite and develop a secondary bacterial infection that still leads to death. The vast majority of illness with our fish is related to a handful of parasites. That sounds a lot like what is being proposed in this topic. More research is definitely necessary but seems possible that one or two parasites are responsible.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Reefahholic]

I must be lucky... no Philaster must be in my tank. I wonder how I avoided them? I did not even try.

How do you know this? Have you microscopically checked?

 

[jda]

No. It was sarcasm. I certainly have them, along with probably thousands of other types of microorganisms that would cease an opportunity for a free meal. I have also not had a RTN event in a decade. There is a flaw with any study that shows that these organisms killed healthy coral in this "study" since it does not happen in most tanks.

 

[Reefahholic]

Ok I watched the video. This guys about as credible as "Nigerian prince" who needs you to PayPal them a bitcoin so they can reclaim their fortune and pay you back. He was all over the place, contradicting himself, etc. There are also contradictions on the website selling the product.

What are his credentials? I bet hes a doctor of dentistry or some unrelated nonsense.

There is some truth to what he says, but he jumps to insane conclusions and calls them facts in order to try and sell the product.

Sorry to burst your bubble man, but Dr Ara Deukmedjian is actually a board certified Neuro Surgeon with 21 years experience.

 

[Reefahholic]

 

[Reefahholic]

This guy doesn’t need anybody’s money. He made a discovery...tested it...and now he’s selling his products. Smart man!

Good for him. Nobody has to buy anything. Don’t buy it if you do not think it works. It’s that simple. Sit back and let those of us who live dangerously and aren’t scared- test and do your dirty work. Then after all the smoke clears you’ll know w/o a doubt if it’s something that you'll be interested in.

Don’t bash the guy. That’s ridiculous. Let’s be adults here. Friendly debate w/o the personal attacks would be nice. Come on guys...we’re all reefers! Reefers unite!

 

[Reefahholic]

 

[jda]

Are we saying that neurosurgery is any closer related to invertebrate pathology as a doctor of dentistry? It is not bashing to ask for consistency, scientific method or applied credentials to the actual field of invertebrate pathology. I don't think that anybody is bashing any kind of neuroscience activity... but he has shown no more ability in the field of invertebrate pathology than I have shown in neurosurgery with a doctorate in engineering. A doctorate in one field does not mean that you are qualified to operate in another - and in school, they go to quite some lengths to educate you about using your doctorate as status outside of your field... it invalidates you in the academic and professional world.

Stop with the neuroscience and have him show how he is qualified as an invertebrate pathologist... otherwise this has officially entered into fanboy territory

I was going to post this yesterday, but I was not completely sold on the possibility of a schil and complete fanboy... this goes on for a few minutes.

 

[Reefahholic]

Definitely can’t argue that his dip is working very well. Apparently his ability is underestimated.

 

[lakai]

I lost a 8" acropora aculeus colony yesterday that went from bright neon green (even out of blue lights) to this in a matter of 10 hours. I never seen one go so quick.

which caused my 5" tenuis to start to go as well.

If its parasites that are doing this, where do they go after they completely consume a coral?

 

[Reefahholic]

I lost a 8" acropora aculeus colony yesterday that went from bright neon green (even out of blue lights) to this in a matter of 10 hours. I never seen one go so quick.

which caused my 5" tenuis to start to go as well.

If its parasites that are doing this, where do they go after they completely consume a coral?

Dang man, sorry to hear this. If you have that coral isolatated in water, you can send me a sample of that water and I’ll test it. I’ll post a video here. PM me if you’re interested.

Where do these parasites go? Who really knows.

I think they remain in the tank and feed on detritus and uneaten food. They’re probably in the rocks, sump, sand, etc. Just like Uronema, I believe they’re opportunistic and do not require a host. There’s probably thousands in all of our tanks.

 

[BigJohnny]

Sorry to burst your bubble man, but Dr Ara Deukmedjian is actually a board certified Neuro Surgeon with 21 years experience.

That doesnt burst my bubble, that's exactly what I said, it's an unrelated field.

 

[BigJohnny]

This guy doesn’t need anybody’s money. He made a discovery...tested it...and now he’s selling his products. Smart man!

Good for him. Nobody has to buy anything. Don’t buy it if you do not think it works. It’s that simple. Sit back and let those of us who live dangerously and aren’t scared- test and do your dirty work. Then after all the smoke clears you’ll know w/o a doubt if it’s something that you'll be interested in.

Don’t bash the guy. That’s ridiculous. Let’s be adults here. Friendly debate w/o the personal attacks would be nice. Come on guys...we’re all reefers! Reefers unite!

What's ridiculous is how he is trying to take advantage of people for money by misrepresenting his "discovery".

 

[BigJohnny]

Are we saying that neurosurgery is any closer related to invertebrate pathology as a doctor of dentistry? It is not bashing to ask for consistency, scientific method or applied credentials to the actual field of invertebrate pathology. I don't think that anybody is bashing any kind of neuroscience activity... but he has shown no more ability in the field of invertebrate pathology than I have shown in neurosurgery with a doctorate in engineering. A doctorate in one field does not mean that you are qualified to operate in another - and in school, they go to quite some lengths to educate you about using your doctorate as status outside of your field... it invalidates you in the academic and professional world.

Stop with the neuroscience and have him show how he is qualified as an invertebrate pathologist... otherwise this has officially entered into fanboy territory

I was going to post this yesterday, but I was not completely sold on the possibility of a schil and complete fanboy... this goes on for a few minutes.

Exactly my point