QUAR Q: COPPER OR CHLOROQUINE?

[EASTERN INDIGO]

My 250g (total) fish only system has been up for about six or seven months. In the first week of June I will be transferring all the fish into a 550g system. When I started I bought 13 fish and added a quarantine dose of either Copper Power or Cuprimine (I have forgotten which). 8 have survived and appear to be thriving, but I lost one foxface, two blue jaws and two tangs along the way. Who knows why? Could have been a consequence of capture and the associated stress, or could have been the copper. I have just added Cuprisorb to leach out all the copper. All of my fish look great, and I am pretty confident I have eradicated all Ich and Velvet (if there ever was any). I just bought two small blue triggers, one regal angel and two rabbitfish and intend to put them in the 550 in June. In the meantime I have put these new fish in a 210g, bare glass, no filtration, for a three month quarantine b4 adding them to display tank. Running airstone and powerheads. Here is my dilemma: If I use Chloroquine Phosphate for the first three weeks I am afraid of ammonia spikes, and I don't know if it is safe to use Prime over and over again for that length of time. Serious water changes (say 50% every other day) should solve that problem, but would use over 1000 gallons of SW, which is an expensive proposition. From all I have read about copper, it seems to be the more dangerous way to go, but I can run biofilter started with Turbostart. So my dilemma is which way to go in making this quarantine decision. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Why do you want to run the quarantine tank with no biofilter? You almost can't stop that, the bacteria will grow wherever it can attach, to try and take up the ammonia. Early on though, you will be battling serious ammonia issues. Ammonia detoxifiers work well with the first doses, but over time, they lose effectiveness, I don't know why. Chloroquine will sometimes impact the biofilter of a tank, but that is more often due to die-off of microfauna, and resolves itself fairly quickly.

If you don't already have chloroquine, you may have difficulty sourcing it right now. The last supplier I saw that had it is no longer able to sell it.

Here is a link to an article I wrote on it back when it was readily available:

Aquarium Fish: Chloroquine: A “New” Drug for Treating Fish Diseases

While not a panacea or miracle drug, chloroquine is experiencing resurgence in popularity for use in fish-only aquariums and quarantine systems to treat a variety of problems ranging from Cryptocaryon to Aiptasia anemone infestations.

reefs.com

Jay

 

[EASTERN INDIGO]

Thank you for your considerate reply. Humblefish has an extensive post about CP. He states that because you cannot measure CP levels, it is best used with no biofiter and no rocks, sand or biomedia, because all of these decrease the medicinal concentration in the water. So this creates the ammonia problem.
On the other hand, I have read many, many negative reasons not to use copper.
All I want to do is prevent adding ich, velvet, brook and whatever to my display tank.
i know there is no perfect method, and I know I am next to ignorant on this matter.
What should I do? Exactly what should I do to avoid killing the fish in quarantine, and also avoid the possibility that copper is setting up a disease free life, only to die shortly down the road from the copper damage.

What is your opinion of just leaving the new fish in a new tank with a new biofilter, kick start it with Turbostart, and then using NO medication for three months? Can I safely assume that three full months of no disease outbreak means they are parasite free?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Humblefish isn’t correct regarding chloroquine and bare tanks. I am able to measure CP using a UV spectrophotometer, and can measure the drop, and it is not that great.
Towards the tail end of my CP research, we began seeing more toxicity issues, and I’ve since revised my dose down from when I wrote that article.
Organically bound copper products are relatively benign. I’ve run copper quarantines for decades with no problems. The big issue I see is people who ramp the copper up so slowly, or hold at less than full dose, that the fish develop Amyloodinium...thinking the symptoms are from copper poisoning, they back off the copper and the fish dies.
Jay

 

[CakeOrCrayons]

@ay Hemdal what would be the best way to establish a safe bio filter while dosing CP? Can “bacterias in a bottle” negatively impact the potency of CP?

I recently broke down and sanitized my QT before getting my most recent batch of fish. Day 1: Added Fritz turbostart to a 20 gallon with a seachem tidal 35 and some foam/bio media. Only other thing in the tank is a few PVC pieces. The 5 new fish arrived via fedex the next day (day 2), were acclimated and introduced to QT.
Day 6 (today) a couple fish show visible white spot signs of ich. I therefore dosed 60mg/gal CP.

I’ve used prime in the past to neutralize ammonia with CP, but what would be best in this scenario? Will the bio filter/fritz turbostart be enough to sustain a 14 day CP treatment? Or will I need to dose prime? Any advice would be most appreciated!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@ay Hemdal what would be the best way to establish a safe bio filter while dosing CP? Can “bacterias in a bottle” negatively impact the potency of CP?

I recently broke down and sanitized my QT before getting my most recent batch of fish. Day 1: Added Fritz turbostart to a 20 gallon with a seachem tidal 35 and some foam/bio media. Only other thing in the tank is a few PVC pieces. The 5 new fish arrived via fedex the next day (day 2), were acclimated and introduced to QT.
Day 6 (today) a couple fish show visible white spot signs of ich. I therefore dosed 60mg/gal CP.

I’ve used prime in the past to neutralize ammonia with CP, but what would be best in this scenario? Will the bio filter/fritz turbostart be enough to sustain a 14 day CP treatment? Or will I need to dose prime? Any advice would be most appreciated!

Each tank is different, you just need to monitor the ammonia level and react accordingly. I still hypothesis the rise in ammonia after Chloroquine is more related to some feature in the tank itself, not directly related to chloroquine killing the bacteria. I suspect the biofilter in some tanks is just overwhelmed by the CP killing off some many invertebrates and algae.

I no longer use CP - first, due to Covid, it isn't really available, and second, I was seeing way too many adverse side effects unless I lowered the dose and then it wasn't very effective.

Jay

 

[Nano Saltyy]

What

Each tank is different, you just need to monitor the ammonia level and react accordingly. I still hypothesis the rise in ammonia after Chloroquine is more related to some feature in the tank itself, not directly related to chloroquine killing the bacteria. I suspect the biofilter in some tanks is just overwhelmed by the CP killing off some many invertebrates and algae.

I no longer use CP - first, due to Covid, it isn't really available, and second, I was seeing way too many adverse side effects unless I lowered the dose and then it wasn't very effective.

Jay

What kind of adverse effects were you seeing? Were they regarding the fishes or the tank parameters?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What

What kind of adverse effects were you seeing? Were they regarding the fishes or the tank parameters?

I was seeing toxicity in wrasses and lionfish, even at 15mg/l. Any lower and I wasn’t getting any disease control.
Jay

 

[Jposch]

Humblefish isn’t correct regarding chloroquine and bare tanks. I am able to measure CP using a UV spectrophotometer, and can measure the drop, and it is not that great.
Towards the tail end of my CP research, we began seeing more toxicity issues, and I’ve since revised my dose down from when I wrote that article.
Organically bound copper products are relatively benign. I’ve run copper quarantines for decades with no problems. The big issue I see is people who ramp the copper up so slowly, or hold at less than full dose, that the fish develop Amyloodinium...thinking the symptoms are from copper poisoning, they back off the copper and the fish dies.
Jay

Have you experienced this type of growth in an otherwise bare chloroquine QT? I found one reference to it from over a decade ago, but with any images. This stuff brushes off easily.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Have you experienced this type of growth in an otherwise bare chloroquine QT? I found one reference to it from over a decade ago, but with any images. This stuff brushes off easily.

Sorry, no idea what that is. Could it be detritus from the material killed by the CP?
Jay

 

[Jposch]

Sorry, no idea what that is. Could it be detritus from the material killed by the CP?
Jay

Thanks. I don't think so. Tank was started completely bare with a seeded sponge filter. Happened after only a week of CP. I bumped up the dosage to mg/gal. And going to sterilize the tank before I treat anymore fish.