What is a healthy fish?

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Brew12

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I don't doubt this can work IF coupled with a tool that eliminates free swimmers. However, fresh seafood can be hard to find in flyover country, and live blackworms costs $60 per 1/8 lb shipped and are subject to ever changing availability. (Most LFS do not carry live blackworms, and most Americans are not going to culture their own worms.)

On the contrary, seafood seemed to be everywhere in Europe when I lived/traveled there. Because it is such an important part of their diet, and you are usually never too far from the coast. Europeans are also typically more patient people, and willing to go that extra mile. Most Americans want everything quick & easy.

So from a practical standpoint, I don't see how this is ever going to work for mainstream American hobbyists. You have to really be dedicated to making it work. I watch public aquariums QT using copper + formalin with a ~ 80% success rate. 5-10 years later the fish are still in their displays (unless cross contamination or some other accident occurs.) No cancer, no destroyed immune system, etc. Of course, not every fish can tolerate that strong of a chemoprophylactic treatment, but it's hard to argue with the overall numbers. Makes me feel like we are constantly trying to reinvent the wheel when they figured it out long ago.
I really didn't write this article to support or condemn one method of receiving fish over another. I touched on it briefly from the perspective that a fish with a parasite can still be healthy. Otherwise, I feel that what I put out in this article are ideals that every reefer should strive to regardless of their QT practices.
I do think people use prophylactic treatments as a tool to help them stock tanks in ways they otherwise couldn't or feed them in ways they shouldn't, but that is a separate issue.
 
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I was about to beat the dead horse.
Nope

This American is starting a worm culture.

I will drop another idea on you. I dont think you have to feed fresh live food to everything all the time. There is so much recycling in a tank ecosystem that feeding something fresh to something in the tank fairly regularly goes a long way. That gets the beneficial bacteria into the food chain to be spread around in the tank.
It has worked for this guy in flyover country for a long time.

I was looking for a new waterer for my dogs. They all have filters in them now. Animals have been drinking from mud puddles for 1000s of years. This desire for sterilization and fear of pests and parasites was ridiculous but is becoming scary.
 

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I have been messaging humble fish about a product that i have found, admittedly its anecdotal evidence, to be very effective at keeping my fish healthy.

Please note that I am a professional biologist and as such, I am particulary leary of word of mouth or popular folk remedys. I remember when someone told me garlic could cure ich i asked him if he recently suffered a head injury.

So I first read of this magical substance in an old issue of advanced aquarist. It sounded too good to be true. So I bought some and started feeding my fish with it. That was about 18months ago and I have not lost a single fish since feeding. I dont want to bore you with details but my tank inhabitants have gone through some stressful events. I have 7 tangs and not a single one has shown a sign of ich although i know they were carrying. I have attenpted to add several delicate fish that got the snot beat out of them... but still no disease.

I did some research recently and talked to a woman i know who is in the aquaculture business and she was like "we go through bags and bags of that stuff". It prevents disease outbreaks in high density fish pens.

So anyways.. the stuff is called beta glucan. Sometimes more specifically, beta 1,3d glucan. I buy bottles of capsules on amazon, break them open and sprinkle it on my fresh sea food when I make it.

I can not do a good job of describing how it works but there are MANY peer reviewed studies that detail its stastically proven ability to boost the immune system using estabished metabolic pathways.

Is it the magic bullet cure all? Proably not but is anything? Has it been proven to help fend off illness, yes it has.

So for me, $10 every couple of months i worth a little exra boost. Even though i have a couple thousand dollars of fish in my tank its not about the money. I see me keeping fish as a big responsibilty to do right by them.

Ok, enough talking. Here are some links that i really really really encourage you to follow and read. To me, its a pretty great substance and whenever I tell people about it they just kind of say.."huh, yeah, ok" and the proceed to debate which wavemaker is better.

The links:





With a little reading i dont think its hard to come to the conclusion that there is some increased health benefits from Beta glucan. Aquaculturists are always battling disease and pest outbreaks in stressfull conditions and this has been proven to be an effective tool in that war.

I believe humble fish said he may include it in some trials he is doing on sick fish. Wish i had the time to do such a thing...but i am building a 600g tank for the new house :)
 

soffutt

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Wow! Thanks for sharing!! Love
I have been messaging humble fish about a product that i have found, admittedly its anecdotal evidence, to be very effective at keeping my fish healthy.

Please note that I am a professional biologist and as such, I am particulary leary of word of mouth or popular folk remedys. I remember when someone told me garlic could cure ich i asked him if he recently suffered a head injury.

So I first read of this magical substance in an old issue of advanced aquarist. It sounded too good to be true. So I bought some and started feeding my fish with it. That was about 18months ago and I have not lost a single fish since feeding. I dont want to bore you with details but my tank inhabitants have gone through some stressful events. I have 7 tangs and not a single one has shown a sign of ich although i know they were carrying. I have attenpted to add several delicate fish that got the snot beat out of them... but still no disease.

I did some research recently and talked to a woman i know who is in the aquaculture business and she was like "we go through bags and bags of that stuff". It prevents disease outbreaks in high density fish pens.

So anyways.. the stuff is called beta glucan. Sometimes more specifically, beta 1,3d glucan. I buy bottles of capsules on amazon, break them open and sprinkle it on my fresh sea food when I make it.

I can not do a good job of describing how it works but there are MANY peer reviewed studies that detail its stastically proven ability to boost the immune system using estabished metabolic pathways.

Is it the magic bullet cure all? Proably not but is anything? Has it been proven to help fend off illness, yes it has.

So for me, $10 every couple of months i worth a little exra boost. Even though i have a couple thousand dollars of fish in my tank its not about the money. I see me keeping fish as a big responsibilty to do right by them.

Ok, enough talking. Here are some links that i really really really encourage you to follow and read. To me, its a pretty great substance and whenever I tell people about it they just kind of say.."huh, yeah, ok" and the proceed to debate which wavemaker is better.

The links:





With a little reading i dont think its hard to come to the conclusion that there is some increased health benefits from Beta glucan. Aquaculturists are always battling disease and pest outbreaks in stressfull conditions and this has been proven to be an effective tool in that war.

I believe humble fish said he may include it in some trials he is doing on sick fish. Wish i had the time to do such a thing...but i am building a 600g tank for the new house :)
this forum!!
 

MnFish1

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I have been messaging humble fish about a product that i have found, admittedly its anecdotal evidence, to be very effective at keeping my fish healthy.

Please note that I am a professional biologist and as such, I am particulary leary of word of mouth or popular folk remedys. I remember when someone told me garlic could cure ich i asked him if he recently suffered a head injury.

So I first read of this magical substance in an old issue of advanced aquarist. It sounded too good to be true. So I bought some and started feeding my fish with it. That was about 18months ago and I have not lost a single fish since feeding. I dont want to bore you with details but my tank inhabitants have gone through some stressful events. I have 7 tangs and not a single one has shown a sign of ich although i know they were carrying. I have attenpted to add several delicate fish that got the snot beat out of them... but still no disease.

I did some research recently and talked to a woman i know who is in the aquaculture business and she was like "we go through bags and bags of that stuff". It prevents disease outbreaks in high density fish pens.

So anyways.. the stuff is called beta glucan. Sometimes more specifically, beta 1,3d glucan. I buy bottles of capsules on amazon, break them open and sprinkle it on my fresh sea food when I make it.

I can not do a good job of describing how it works but there are MANY peer reviewed studies that detail its stastically proven ability to boost the immune system using estabished metabolic pathways.

Is it the magic bullet cure all? Proably not but is anything? Has it been proven to help fend off illness, yes it has.

So for me, $10 every couple of months i worth a little exra boost. Even though i have a couple thousand dollars of fish in my tank its not about the money. I see me keeping fish as a big responsibilty to do right by them.

Ok, enough talking. Here are some links that i really really really encourage you to follow and read. To me, its a pretty great substance and whenever I tell people about it they just kind of say.."huh, yeah, ok" and the proceed to debate which wavemaker is better.

The links:





With a little reading i dont think its hard to come to the conclusion that there is some increased health benefits from Beta glucan. Aquaculturists are always battling disease and pest outbreaks in stressfull conditions and this has been proven to be an effective tool in that war.

I believe humble fish said he may include it in some trials he is doing on sick fish. Wish i had the time to do such a thing...but i am building a 600g tank for the new house :)
The flake food I use touts the high beta glucan content
 
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I have been messaging humble fish about a product that i have found, admittedly its anecdotal evidence, to be very effective at keeping my fish healthy.

Please note that I am a professional biologist and as such, I am particulary leary of word of mouth or popular folk remedys. I remember when someone told me garlic could cure ich i asked him if he recently suffered a head injury.

So I first read of this magical substance in an old issue of advanced aquarist. It sounded too good to be true. So I bought some and started feeding my fish with it. That was about 18months ago and I have not lost a single fish since feeding. I dont want to bore you with details but my tank inhabitants have gone through some stressful events. I have 7 tangs and not a single one has shown a sign of ich although i know they were carrying. I have attenpted to add several delicate fish that got the snot beat out of them... but still no disease.

I did some research recently and talked to a woman i know who is in the aquaculture business and she was like "we go through bags and bags of that stuff". It prevents disease outbreaks in high density fish pens.

So anyways.. the stuff is called beta glucan. Sometimes more specifically, beta 1,3d glucan. I buy bottles of capsules on amazon, break them open and sprinkle it on my fresh sea food when I make it.

I can not do a good job of describing how it works but there are MANY peer reviewed studies that detail its stastically proven ability to boost the immune system using estabished metabolic pathways.

Is it the magic bullet cure all? Proably not but is anything? Has it been proven to help fend off illness, yes it has.

So for me, $10 every couple of months i worth a little exra boost. Even though i have a couple thousand dollars of fish in my tank its not about the money. I see me keeping fish as a big responsibilty to do right by them.

Ok, enough talking. Here are some links that i really really really encourage you to follow and read. To me, its a pretty great substance and whenever I tell people about it they just kind of say.."huh, yeah, ok" and the proceed to debate which wavemaker is better.

The links:





With a little reading i dont think its hard to come to the conclusion that there is some increased health benefits from Beta glucan. Aquaculturists are always battling disease and pest outbreaks in stressfull conditions and this has been proven to be an effective tool in that war.

I believe humble fish said he may include it in some trials he is doing on sick fish. Wish i had the time to do such a thing...but i am building a 600g tank for the new house :)
Now this is something with real potential!
 

Lasse

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A tip

Many articles of interest for us are behind paywalls. However - many times, the authors have published their works on sites like Researchgate where you can read and sometimes download the article for personal use. Normally it needs that the article is at least 1 year old. Just copy the title and search here

However - now we are searching for a fast fix again - without any reflections at all. Believe me - in a couple of years of using "immune boosted wonder products" - we will face a new draw back. Which - I can´t tell - but it will be some.

What is b-Glucan´s, which are their natural role and where are they produced in a natural environment? They are - as the first article state -
naturally occurring polysaccharides with glucose as structural component
They are a part of the cell walls of many plants, yest´s, seaweed, mushrooms, fungi and bacteria. Their biological function are mostly to be a trigger for activation of different types of immunological reactions among animals. It is like - delivery based on needs of immune response.

In aquaculture (at least in some not based on total filtration - aerobic and anaerobic treatment) there is no natural production of these compounds. I can see the need of putting in this type of compounds in order to provoke a good fish health. But in an aquarium? I can see the need at exporters, importers, wholesalers, LFS and when you introduce new fish but as normal treatment in a "wounder food"?

The biological reason why we do not have a defense system that is optimal all the time is because it demand energy input. Of nature, nature :))) is energy conservative along the line "minimum energy input for maximum outcome" Because an organism that is a consumer never knows when it will get an energy input (food) it must maintain the resources and use them where they provide the optimum benefit (IMO).

What can we do if we want to have a system that promote the natural production of these important compounds. I think it is very important to have a holistic point of view and construct the aquarium in that way. Yest, fungi and some bacteria is a part of the anaerobic breakdown system, algae is a part of primary producers and so on. A good system must (IMO) contain both aerobic and anaerobic environments and for me - it include sand that can be in a natural stage.

So from a practical standpoint, I don't see how this is ever going to work for mainstream American hobbyists. You have to really be dedicated to making it work.
This is a statement will never work for me. With my knowledge, experiences and mistakes I have done - it is my d....m duty to try to educate, educate, educate and educate how to handle a living system in your living room and solve the underlying questions. Not to use science to do quick fix that create other problems in the future. All knowledge how nature works - is good knowledge that help you to take wise decisions both for your aquarium and your normal life.

Brew12 article (the base for this discussion) is on of the better articles I have read according to these questions - It shows that a technician really can understand biological questions - and translate jumbo-jumbo into understandably English and that´s rare:) For me - this is a sticky in the disease forum

Back to the discussion - it do not need to be fresh seafood in order to introduce beneficial bacteria. Use frozen whole food like clams, shrimps, artemia, small octopus, mysidae and even whole small fish. Its important that they are fresh frozen, not irradiated, heat treated and contain the whole animal including digestive tracts. If you do not believe in this - just take a whole fresh shrimp or fish. Put it in an airtight plastic bag and freeze. After a time take it out and let it thaw - still in the airtight plastic bag. If you dare - let it be in room temperature for a couple of days - open the plastic bag and smell :) . The gut bacteria have done its job - they was only dormant during the cold period. If you think that newly thawed whole sea food (or freshwater whole food) contain to low number of bacteria - let it stand in the chiller over night or a couple of hours in room temperature and you have a natural increase of bacteria needed.


Sincerely Lasse
 

Paul B

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I dont think you have to feed fresh live food to everything all the time.
This is very true, I feed live worms maybe once or twice a week or I use clams (which I do feed every day)
I also am intrigued by Beta-Glucan just as a curiosity and I want to learn more about it just for my own knowledge. I don't need it because I guess I found the "secret" to fish health but I realize for whatever reasons many people need a magic "pill" so if it works, it may be a huge boon for this hobby. Especially the ones who seem to have so many problems with fish health.

I read the link on Beta -Glucans and I feel better just by reading it. :p
Some forms or it come from Bakers Yeast. I have been feeding my worms Nutritional Yeast for years. Maybe some of that is making it's way to my fish. I also eat the stuff myself, the yeast, not the worms. ;Bucktooth

It also says that it is used in MS patients. My wife has MS so I am sending that link to my wife's neurologist who is a friend of mine to see what his feelings on it are and if I should give it to my wife. (as opposed to the worms I give her now ;Meh)

This picture has nothing to do with this discussion, it is just there for interest and I had nothing to do.
 
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WVNed

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One type of fiber that has received much attention lately is beta-glucan, a glucose polymer found in the cell walls of cereals (eg, oats, barley), certain types of mushrooms (eg, reishi, shiitake, maitake), yeasts, seaweed, and algae.

Abstract
Five types of macroalgae from the southern hemisphere were analysed for the presence of β-1,3/1,6-glucan and its immunostimulant properties

blah blah blah

Remarkably, the β-glucan induced a 16.9% increase in activated CD19+ B lymphocytes compared with the control sample.

We have discovered fiber is good for fish, just like us. Perhaps we should be feeding our fish Cheerios.
 
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WVNed

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In an interesting side note my daughter advised us to take the dogs off of a grain free diet and now my vet has mentioned it to me. Grain free is causing health issues in some dogs.

fiber works for dogs too.
 
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pdxmonkeyboy

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Lasse brings up a valid point and one that I have thought about before. Is triggering immune system response some type of energy expsensive exercise that is in itself, some form of stress?

I honestly don't know if that is the case but intuition and experience tells me that it is not. Surely when you are sick you can feel tired and everyone know that if a wound is hot and red, you have an infection. Your immune system is battling an infection. Now are you tired because your body is producing antibodies or are you tired because you can't sleep or breath through your nose, etc? It turns out that your body actually produces chemicals to make you sleepy because your body does its best repairing when you are asleep. It is a complex process obviously and it does conserve energy, but it appears to be more of a case of suppressing endorphins and other hormones than purely not having enough energy because your cells are waging war inside you.

While indeed fish in pens are mega stressed I do not hold the opinion that life in an aquarium is a picnic either. NOBODY has water parameters as solid as the ocean. Ph and salinity swings are hard on fish, as is the ability to not be able to flee from stressful situations. If you were placed in a small room of people and one of them wanted to kick your .... then it would be stressful. You would eventually get used to it, but it would always be stressful.. that constant adrenal shot would take its toll.

Given the fact that it is inevitable that our fish will face some form of stress, it doesnt seem like a bad idea to regularly give them concentrated forms of immune system boosters that they are already ingesting. Certainly people with good diets are less prone to illness. No?

Anyways, its a good discussion. I needed something engaging.
 
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While indeed fish in pens are mega stressed I do not hold the opinion that life in an aquarium is a picnic either. NOBODY has water parameters as solid as the ocean. Ph and salinity swings are hard on fish, as is the ability to not be able to flee from stressful situations. If you were placed in a small room of people and one of them wanted to kick your .... then it would be stressful. You would eventually get used to it, but it would always be stressful.. that constant adrenal shot would take its toll.
Unless I misunderstood, I don't think this was what Lasse was saying about fish in pens. Fish in pens or aquaculture holding tanks don't have ready access to fiber. A healthy reef tank will grow algae for them to eat so a fiber supplement may not be as effective in a fiber rich reef tank as a fiber deficient holding tank.

I'm very glad you brought this up. I had no idea that fiber was that important to the fish immune system. So much to learn!
 

pdxmonkeyboy

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I was trying to address, what i read, as his point about immune boosting being energy expensive.

I could have missed his point completely...micro biology with morning coffee is not the best recipe for accuracy.

If i misunderstood, then my apologies.
 

Paul Sands

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I have been messaging humble fish about a product that i have found, admittedly its anecdotal evidence, to be very effective at keeping my fish healthy.

Please note that I am a professional biologist and as such, I am particulary leary of word of mouth or popular folk remedys. I remember when someone told me garlic could cure ich i asked him if he recently suffered a head injury.

So I first read of this magical substance in an old issue of advanced aquarist. It sounded too good to be true. So I bought some and started feeding my fish with it. That was about 18months ago and I have not lost a single fish since feeding. I dont want to bore you with details but my tank inhabitants have gone through some stressful events. I have 7 tangs and not a single one has shown a sign of ich although i know they were carrying. I have attenpted to add several delicate fish that got the snot beat out of them... but still no disease.

I did some research recently and talked to a woman i know who is in the aquaculture business and she was like "we go through bags and bags of that stuff". It prevents disease outbreaks in high density fish pens.

So anyways.. the stuff is called beta glucan. Sometimes more specifically, beta 1,3d glucan. I buy bottles of capsules on amazon, break them open and sprinkle it on my fresh sea food when I make it.

I can not do a good job of describing how it works but there are MANY peer reviewed studies that detail its stastically proven ability to boost the immune system using estabished metabolic pathways.

Is it the magic bullet cure all? Proably not but is anything? Has it been proven to help fend off illness, yes it has.

So for me, $10 every couple of months i worth a little exra boost. Even though i have a couple thousand dollars of fish in my tank its not about the money. I see me keeping fish as a big responsibilty to do right by them.

Ok, enough talking. Here are some links that i really really really encourage you to follow and read. To me, its a pretty great substance and whenever I tell people about it they just kind of say.."huh, yeah, ok" and the proceed to debate which wavemaker is better.

The links:





With a little reading i dont think its hard to come to the conclusion that there is some increased health benefits from Beta glucan. Aquaculturists are always battling disease and pest outbreaks in stressfull conditions and this has been proven to be an effective tool in that war.

I believe humble fish said he may include it in some trials he is doing on sick fish. Wish i had the time to do such a thing...but i am building a 600g tank for the new house :)

“The addition of glucan to the Aeromonas vaccine significantly increased the production of antibodies in all antigens tested, however, even the elevated level of antibodies did not offer sufficient protection against Aeromonas infection.”

“Glucan with vaccine against Streptococcus bactericin was not effective in turbot and glucan with vaccine against S. iniade had no effect on the Oreochromic niloticus model. Trials with commercial glucan vaccine VitaStim Taito showed no effects.”

While there have been some positive effects found, there are also studies that found no effect at all. Promoting this as some magic cure all is pretty much insane. It MAY be helpful in SOME instances.
 

pdxmonkeyboy

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I fail to see your point Paul. I am a proponant of its benefits. The point is what it can help with, not what it doesn't do.
I don't think anyone is promoting anything as the magic cure all. I had even stated "is it the magic cure all...probably not"

People don't advertise the flu vaccine with a statement that it won't cure herpes....
 
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Paul Sands

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I fail to see your point Paul. I am a proponant of its benefits. The point is what it can help with, not what it doesn't do.
I don't think anyone is promoting anything as the magic cure all. I had even stated "is it the magic cure all...probably not"

People don't advertise the flu vaccine with a statement that it won't cure herpes....
Then why even bother posting about it in this thread?

Glucan has been around for decades. Most of these studies are from the 1990’s, so they are now 30 years old. You don’t think brightwell, API, seachem, etc haven’t already studied this? They have. And there isn’t a product with glucan in it being sold to aquarists because it’s simply not effective enough to bother for most species and diseases. It has very limited use for commercial fisheries with specific fish that have shown slight benefits.
 

Humblefish

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This is a statement will never work for me. With my knowledge, experiences and mistakes I have done - it is my d....m duty to try to educate, educate, educate and educate how to handle a living system in your living room and solve the underlying questions. Not to use science to do quick fix that create other problems in the future. All knowledge how nature works - is good knowledge that help you to take wise decisions both for your aquarium and your normal life.
My goal is to find solutions which are repeatable for the average hobbyist. Not confuse them with a bunch of theories and long-winded explanations. Disease management (or whatever you wanna call it) is not easily repeatable because you've got 20 different guys all promoting their silver bullet: UV, Diatom Filter, Oxydator, Ozone, Garlic, Ginger, Live Blackworms, Fish Oil, Fresh Seafood, Reverse Flow Undergravel Filter, now gut flora. If I'm a newbie, which of those combinations do I put into practice? Maybe all of them? :rolleyes:

I think @HotRocks and I are pretty much on the same page when it comes to keeping diseases out of your DT. Or at least the more virulent ones. This is easy to understand, repeatable and it works on most fish: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-current-qt-process.483371/

As mentioned previously, I work with public aquariums who QT using much harsher medications (primarily formalin) than what we advocate. One in particular that I've worked with over the past 10 years has most of the fish that were treated with copper, formalin, prazi, metro, antibiotics 5+ years ago. I expect those fish to live another 5 years and beyond. So, what's worse? Chemoprophylaxis, or some newbie losing fish every 2-3 months while he struggles to figure out how to naturally immunize all his fish. :confused:
 

Humblefish

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Then why even bother posting about it in this thread?

Glucan has been around for decades. Most of these studies are from the 1990’s, so they are now 30 years old. You don’t think brightwell, API, seachem, etc haven’t already studied this? They have. And there isn’t a product with glucan in it being sold to aquarists because it’s simply not effective enough to bother for most species and diseases. It has very limited use for commercial fisheries with specific fish that have shown slight benefits.
I think this is the perfect thread to discuss beta glucan. Since most of what's being discussed here is theoretical. Brian is not saying beta glucan is a cure-all or should be relied upon for disease management at this time. Rather, he's sharing his experiences which are backed up by peer reviewed studies. He's made a compelling argument that beta glucan should be examined more closely to determine the potential health benefits for aquarium fish.

And to be clear, just about everything being discussed here is worthy of further investigation. To determine feasibility. My only issue is that newbies should be pointed in a direction that is tried and true, and once they become more experienced (and understand the risks) let them experiment with whatever they want. Because if it fails them, they can always go back to what initially worked. And not just think that fish diseases are an insurmountable problem.
 
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Lasse

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The addition of glucan to the Aeromonas vaccine significantly increased the production of antibodies in all antigens tested, however, even the elevated level of antibodies did not offer sufficient protection against Aeromonas infection.”

“Glucan with vaccine against Streptococcus bactericin was not effective in turbot and glucan with vaccine against S. iniade had no effect on the Oreochromic niloticus model. Trials with commercial glucan vaccine VitaStim Taito showed no effects.”

This quote is from a part of a review. Reading the whole review give a total other picture of the importance of some of these compounds.

Sincerely Lasse
 

Paul B

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Humble, my good friend. Gut bacteria takes into account many of those things you mentioned, Live blackworms, fish oil, clams, fresh seafood etc. (Reverse UG filtration is just silly) :oops:

Also in the beginning of this thread it was stated that the Seattle aquarium (I think) had an 80% better survival rate by not using meds. I myself have a 100% survival rate by not medicating. 100%

It is no secret that gut bacteria is what controls our immunity and a fish. To expect a fish to live for five years is a total failure as a fish should only die of old age and never anything else. Absolutely any other cause of death is a total failure.
Most of our fish should live 15 or 20 or more years, I know some of yours do.

I looked into this Glucan and I think it is already in one of my wife's medications for MS. I may take it myself, maybe it cures baldness or bad knees.
Soon I think we will all discover the power of gut bacteria and will no longer need fish meds or disease forums as I don't.

All meds from copper to Prizapro to antibiotics will destroy gut bacteria "causing" illness, not curing it.
I realize many people who do not medicate have problems but I believe that is due to improper diet. Meaning a diet without proper bacteria.

Many people mention "Quality" flakes. I feel there is no such thing as flakes are baked. Anything baked will have no benefits to gut bacteria. As a matter of fact , any food, for us or the fish that does not need refrigeration will not be very good as there is nothing in it to die or go bad. (except peanut butter or honey but fish won't eat that. ;Wideyed)

White flour is a good analogy. It is in many things but it in itself is not even a food. It is glue which is why it is always fortified with vitamins and minerals. If they didn't do that, they couldn't sell it as food. It doesn't go bad and bugs don't eat it.

Good foods will have living bacteria and they will go bad. Fish make their immunity in response to their gut bacteria. and fish from the sea are immune from everything. We, the wholesaler and the store make them sick.

When we are born we are not quarantined from bacteria and parasites. We are full of parasites and we are part bacteria. If we kill those things in a baby, that baby won't live very long. It is natural to be exposed to everything at least occasionally which is why we get shots. (you may get shots for distemper after you read this, but I am not sure) :p
 
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