What would happen if...?

[tvan]

@fishguy242 Fingers crossed and eyes for that little guy.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I think the idea is that without fish and micro fauna, very little waste will be produced to feed the "ugly".

I do think that the lack of bacteria will pose a problem. And wonder if each individual coral has all the bacteria required to thrive.

Tom, are you considering water changes to maintain calcium, magnesium, alkalinity and trace elements? Or are you planning to dose? Or perhaps a CaRx? Or are you playing that part by ear too?

I wonder if that inorganic in the rock that was placed in the sun for 2 weeks will fuel the nitrogen cycle?? I wonder if the experiment would be better off starting with dry rock that has never touched salt water??

All these variables need to be accounted for so that we can discuss success and failure.

I think in the long run the hard part will be maintaining nutrients, although it's been proven in the past that ulns can work, it will just yeild pastel colors. I'm eager to see the outcome.

 

[AZMSGT]

The link here will allow you to see my results of a tank going fishless because I was fighting with an ICK issue. Perhaps some of what I used can help you in your experiment.

Lots of SPS Coral growth with no fish.

My tank has had no fish due to an ICK issue. During the last 72 days I expected to loose corals knowing I might not be able to keep things stable. That said, I have 50+ snails and 3 shrimp. Also the tank has Pods and some worm I have yet to identify. Initially I lost one coral, it was one fox...

humble.fish

 

[TMB]

It sounds like a good experiment approached with the right attitude. Very cool.

My prediction is an ugly stage with out of control nuisance algae, because of the lack of microbial diversity. If you set up an identical tank but used live rock or dry rock + live mud & sand, I predict the one with the proper microbial diversity would avoid this ugly stage.

Important to test these things, I'll be curious to see how it goes.

I'm glad you're seeing it the way I see it. This experiment is not intended to harm anything - and I don't know that I'll actually let that happen, at least to the best of my ability.

I wonder about your prediction too - and also wonder about microbial population/diversity. In fact there are several recent threads on this subject here lately that have me thinking about it in my main system. Hence the want to find out "what would happen".

Thanks for your input!

 

[TMB]

Hmmm, Mother nature authored the coral reef, you are trying to circumvent mother nature. All thanks cycle, all the time. New tanks do it badly. Mature tanks do it with grace. This has been proven time and time again. Poor little coral.

@tvan Let me just say that I can appreciate your concern, and pondered the "morality" of my experiment, if there is such a thing.

Now I know I asked for dissent, and happy you brought it up, but I'm not sure what the difference is here from anyone else adding a "tester frag" to see how things go. And we've all had losses. The main difference here is that I'm not going anywhere to secure my "testers". I have them overgrowing my system and giving them away every chance I get. It's to the point of considering throwing them away I have so much coral.

Thanks for your post - I appreciate your point of view.

 

[TMB]

I think the idea is that without fish and micro fauna, very little waste will be produced to feed the "ugly".

I do think that the lack of bacteria will pose a problem. And wonder if each individual coral has all the bacteria required to thrive.

Tom, are you considering water changes to maintain calcium, magnesium, alkalinity and trace elements? Or are you planning to dose? Or perhaps a CaRx? Or are you playing that part by ear too?


Good question - I left out bits and pieces on purpose in the hopes of sparking additional conversation in this thread.
To answer the question directly - yes, I will be testing parameters and keeping things stable. Not sure if I'll go CARX or Dossing (I have both), But I will do something when/if the need arises. And yes I'll be doing water changes.

I wonder if that inorganic in the rock that was placed in the sun for 2 weeks will fuel the nitrogen cycle?? I wonder if the experiment would be better off starting with dry rock that has never touched salt water?? Good question - one that I don't have the answer to. I actually assumed that it was dead. I think the start up might have proven me wrong on that.

All these variables need to be accounted for so that we can discuss success and failure. Agreed.

I think in the long run the hard part will be maintaining nutrients, although it's been proven in the past that ulns can work, it will just yeild pastel colors. I'm eager to see the outcome.

Thanks for the post and insights!

Sisterlimonpot said:
I think the idea is that without fish and micro fauna, very little waste will be produced to feed the "ugly".

I do think that the lack of bacteria will pose a problem. And wonder if each individual coral has all the bacteria required to thrive.

Tom, are you considering water changes to maintain calcium, magnesium, alkalinity and trace elements? Or are you planning to dose? Or perhaps a CaRx? Or are you playing that part by ear too?


Good question - I left out bits and pieces on purpose in the hopes of sparking additional conversation in this thread.
To answer the question directly - yes, I will be testing parameters and keeping things stable. Not sure if I'll go CARX or Dossing (I have both), But I will do something when/if the need arises. And yes I'll be doing water changes.

I wonder if that inorganic in the rock that was placed in the sun for 2 weeks will fuel the nitrogen cycle?? I wonder if the experiment would be better off starting with dry rock that has never touched salt water?? Good question - one that I don't have the answer to. I actually assumed that it was dead. I think the start up might have proven me wrong on that.

All these variables need to be accounted for so that we can discuss success and failure. Agreed.

I think in the long run the hard part will be maintaining nutrients, although it's been proven in the past that ulns can work, it will just yeild pastel colors. I'm eager to see the outcome.

Thanks for the post and insights!

 

[TMB]

The link here will allow you to see my results of a tank going fishless because I was fighting with an ICK issue. Perhaps some of what I used can help you in your experiment.

Lots of SPS Coral growth with no fish.

My tank has had no fish due to an ICK issue. During the last 72 days I expected to loose corals knowing I might not be able to keep things stable. That said, I have 50+ snails and 3 shrimp. Also the tank has Pods and some worm I have yet to identify. Initially I lost one coral, it was one fox...

humble.fish

Appreciate the link - I'll have a look.

 

[jporter17]

I know what you're capable of so I have no doubt you'll have success. Can I provide a couple test subjects? JP

 

[TMB]

I know what you're capable of so I have no doubt you'll have success. Can I provide a couple test subjects? JP

Appreciate the vote of confidence! Sure, as I progress through this, I may need a few!

 

[tvan]

By the way, Nice tank!

 

[TMB]

Friday update.
Everything still looks very sterile in the tank. The frag could be a bit ticked? Not too bad though - nothing I would be too concerned about yet.

So far there is zero algae showing up, and no diatoms or anything else that would normally happen in the first few weeks.

Maybe i’ll do some water tests this weekend and see If there’s any nutrients in there. Which I’m Sure there is from die off from the rock.

Still have not added anything - this is just the rock, and new salt water - nothing else.

 

[AZMSGT]

Nitrates and phosphates?

 

[TMB]

I’ll check and let everyone know.



Edit for test results:


WOW didn’t expect this!!!
NO3 - 100 - Salifert
PO4 - flashing 200 - off scale of Hanna ULR, which is over .61 ppm

Interesting result since there is no algae growth “yet”, or anything else. I expected it to be up there but not that high. Can’t wait to see what kinds of ugly show up in there!

Possible water change? I could do 100% have plenty on hand. Or partials?
Only problem with partials with levels being that high is it takes a bunch of them to do any good.


What are everyone’s thoughts? Not really concerned about the coral, I can just put it back in my frag tank. But I think I’ll leave it until there’s a reason to remove it. For now it looks “ok”.

 

[AZMSGT]

I’ll check and let everyone know.



Edit for test results:


WOW didn’t expect this!!!
NO3 - 100 - Salifert
PO4 - flashing 200 - off scale of Hanna ULR, which is over .61 ppm

Interesting result since there is no algae growth “yet”, or anything else. I expected it to be up there but not that high. Can’t wait to see what kinds of ugly show up in there!

Possible water change? I could do 100% have plenty on hand. Or partials?
Only problem with partials with levels being that high is it takes a bunch of them to do any good.


What are everyone’s thoughts? Not really concerned about the coral, I can just put it back in my frag tank. But I think I’ll leave it until there’s a reason to remove it. For now it looks “ok”.

Yes, something is decaying, so I would do 2 50% water changes spread over a couple days.

 

[fishguy242]

agree 2/50's ,have skimmer running ,if so how is production?

 

[TMB]

agree 2/50's ,have skimmer running ,if so how is production?

Yup skimmers running. It skimmed a lot when the bacterial bloom was gong on. Since then nothing special, just seems normal for a light bioload. Funny because there is none other than the decaying rock.

I’m interested to just keep going in this non conventional order. Meaning corals before anything else.
Well aware that I could go the “normal” route and get some CUC, fish for a while, make sure everything’s stable and then try corals. I’ve done that many times.

If problems pop up that require fixing I’ll address those as they come.