#1 WHAT IF I TOLD YOU... Ammonia is causing your algae problems?

[Lasse]

It is no doubt that NH3/NH4 is the preferred nitrogen species for most photosynthetic organism including algae and the zooxanthella of photosynthetic corals – but that´s not the same as it is the source of algae problems. By the way – I do not see algae as primary a problem – for me – it is primary a resource – I only need to find organisms that eat it!

Sincerely Lasse

 

[HB AL]

So with the amount of fish I have and tons of corals and all the food I feed the fish daily which is now between 8 to 10 frozen Hikari cubes, they are producing ammonia but I don’t really have any algae let alone a hugs outbreak, so that’s kinda confusing, as far as the theory goes.

 

[Fish_Sticks]

My previous low tech 75G ran a low nutrient removal strategy, absolutely no sucking out detritus; however, I also intended on using entry level equipment, so that meant no sump, no high powered skimmer, no gfo, no phosban, nothing; a hot mess of an experiment. When I moved, I contemplated tearing the tank down as it was not worth the time to try and attain balance at the same time as moved tank syndrome while trying achieve really good coral growth with these methods, even with just softies and LPS.

Here is the 75G, skimmerless, sumpless, no interaction tank. I set this up and never touched it for 2 years, aside form moving some corals around every now and then.

As you can see, the tank was doing alright. I had started with very small frags, the red mushrooms I started with only one. The tank ran natural/dirty for about a year. I never tried adding sps, but the softies & lps loved the nutrient rich water. At this point, I wasn't performing any algae, detritus removal, or sandbed maintenance. I only had 4 damsels (incl the clown), a six line, royal gramma, the rest gobies, hermits, shrimps, stars, snails, filter feeders.

So I had some growth and pretty much no algae outbreaks for a while. As the detritus built up everywhere for a good year, I started to see algae outpace my feeders.

After about 1 year and a half I had to move, then the tank got taken down. The coral growth wasnt very good, and I started experiencing algae takeovers a few months before moving. But I didn't touch it.

So that was what I did with no skimmer, no sump, no interaction, no detritus removal, no rock blasting, or maintenance at all.

When I moved the tank to my new house, the algae got out of control, 6 months ago, and the algae has grown over the corals and cause a bit of bleaching. I'll take some photos when I get home. I haven't even photographed that tank since I moved because its in a sad state. I attribute the algae outbreak to the move, obviously, but the coral growth wasn't that great anyways running this no interaction method. Pretty mediocre I would say. Sustainable? Sure. But not very successful in my eyes, especially considering I only kept softies and two LPS. The red mushrooms multiplied from 2, to over 30, but that was the only remarkable growth.

I suppose I could try the algae bible fix on this tank now that algae has taken over, and post some results later.

Now with the 75g soon off my shoulders, I'll be starting up a 210G , but Im still a few months out before that will be ready for fish. We can compare the 210 to this setup if you like, but I already know what the results will be.

My 210 build thread is here:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/n...ffice-oh-and-theyll-deliver-it-for-50.555286/

I tend to run my tanks a little dirty and hands off as much as possible. I only result to using the algae bible strategies when problems occur or its been a while since I've performed maintenance, typically every 1-2 months.

I'm not suggesting people suck out detritus or result to the algae bible every week on a regular basis, as that goes against the patience and hands off approach that I try to stick to and was forced to practice by trying this type of tank.

 

[EmdeReef]

After this, there is no turning back.

You take the blue pill - the story ends, you keep believing that nitrate and phosphate are the cause of your algae problems.

You take the red pill - I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.



What if I told you... that Ammonia was causing your algae problems?
Remember that parameter that nobody ever talks about. The one that you checked years ago when you first set up your tank? Well guess what. Ammonia is produced every millisecond your tank is up. Whether it is being used by the bacteria, or the algae, is an entirely different story.

Why do you have algae? Its plain and simple, don't let anyone fool you.
Your tank is dirty; maybe not chemically, but physically.

Nitrate levels around 10-20 are perfectly fine. Phosphates dont even really matter that much. Algae doesn't even really like nitrogen, what they do love, is ammonia!

For algae to use nitrogen, they must convert it into ammonia.

Algae love ammonia because it is less work for algae to consume ammonia than nitrogen.

When detritus (fish crap uneaten food) breaks down into ammonia, the ammonia is usually taken up by the bacteria in your rock; however, because algae use ammonia very efficiently, algae can use ammonia before the bacteria have a chance. This causes some bacteria to die off and for the algae to get worse over time.

Can you see how this would create a snowball effect?

Your algae is essentially taking over your bacteria.

This gets even worse because the algae also contributes to clogging up your rock and taking up valuable surface area that bacteria need to live. Algae can overtake your bacteria when it comes to using ammonia. Think you can keep reducing your nitrates into oblivion and starving your corals in hopes your algae will magically disappear? Think again. Your tank is dirty.

But I've written an algae bible. This method will really knock your socks off.

___________________________________________________________________

The algae control bible as prescribed by fish_sticks.

The rules of algae management:

1. do not make sudden changes, do not use hydrogen peroxide, do not turn off your lights and perform a tank blackout (this is not only bad for your corals, but your fish), or do anything that would be described as a fast fix. These strategies do not work long term. As soon as you stop dosing, as soon as you turn back on the lights, the algae will come back. These are foolish strategies.

2. patience. Understand that it will take a few weeks or even a month to fix the problem. This hobby is based on the slowest changing thing in the world, the ocean. Patience is required to achieve success in the hobby.

3. algae is not a bad thing. Sure its ugly, but its not going to crash your tank in a few weeks. Every single tank on the planet has algae, there is no way to get rid of it. The secret that nobody talks about, is that you never get rid of algae, you control algae.

4. during this process, you should be manually removing algae from the tank when it reaches high levels, or when it threatens the well being of your corals and fish.

5. do not do too much too fast. Take things slow and focus on changing your habits. The algae will dissipate with time if you perform a responsible maintenance routine. Plus, fish love a little snack of fresh grown algae, they are probably having a ball while they watch you run around like a crazy person changing a hundred things on the tank and ruining the balance of the ecosystem.

6. this bible assumes that you arent running your lights for longer than 14/16 hours. Although algae likes light, it cannot survive on just light. If you have a dirty tank, you can grow algea with lights on for only a few hours a day. Fix the real problem...

7. do not add more snails, shrimp, fish or other animals to the system to FIX your algae, initially. You should already be running a tank with these inhabitants, otherwise nicknamed the Clean Up Crew (CUC). These animals will bring your ecosystem full circle, and play an important role in turning algae back into food for bacteria.
AFTER you've addressed the detritus build up issue, consider readdressing your stock list to include more CUC members, such as snails, shrimps gobies, and everybody's favorite fish, the lawnmower blenny.

8. do not go overboard with detritus removal. Your existing bacteria and corals need decaying detritus to remain healthy. The focus is not to starve your algae into oblivion, but to control the algae so bacteria have a chance to repopulate and take the algaes place. Bacteria repopulation is our main objective, not total detritus removal, not 0-5 nitrates, not 0 phosphates, not low ammonia production, as those are inherently unhealthy and now finally dated practices.

Why do you have algae? Its plain and simple, don't let anyone fool you.
Your tank is dirty; maybe not chemically, but physically.

Nitrate levels around 10-20 are perfectly fine. Phosphates dont even really matter that much. Algae doesn't even really like nitrogen, what they do love, is ammonia!

For algae to use nitrogen, they must convert it into ammonia.

Algae love ammonia because it is less work for algae to consume ammonia than nitrogen.

When detritus (fish crap uneaten food) breaks down into ammonia, the ammonia is usually taken up by the bacteria in your rock; however, because algae use ammonia very efficiently, algae can use ammonia before the bacteria have a chance. This causes some bacteria to die off and for the algae to get worse over time.

Can you see how this would create a snowball effect?

Your algae is essentially taking over your bacteria.

This gets even worse because the algae also contributes to clogging up your rock and taking up valuable surface area that bacteria need to live. Algae can overtake your bacteria when it comes to using ammonia. Think you can keep reducing your nitrates into oblivion and starving your corals in hopes your algae will magically disappear? Think again. Your tank is dirty.

So, if you remove the detritus, you solve your algae problems. Don't let anyone fool you otherwise!

Where is the detritus?
It can be in the holes and pores of your rock.
Fix: use a turkey baster to blast out only a few rocks per day, overtime your equipment (skimmer or filter socks) will collect the detritus. You also create more surface area for bacteria to live inside the rocks.
It can be in your sand bed.
Fix: Vacuum out your sand bed with a gravel vacuum. This can and should be done on a regular basis during your routine water changes, and you kill two birds with one stone; changing the water, and cleaning detritus! I like to vacuum out with my right hand, hold the end of the hose with my left, and control the flow of water in the siphon hose with my left hand fingers.
It can be in your equipment.
Fix: Clean your equipment on a regular basis, check any sponges, filter floss, pumps, wavemaker suction cups. Detritus can get lodged anywhere.
It can be in your sump.
Fix: I like to suck it up with a turkey baster. The best part about the baster is you can use it to blow water out, or suck things up.
It can be in your macroalgae (if you're growing macroalgae).
Fix: After a small 1G water change, just shake out your chaeto macroalgae in your water change water.

Great so now I can go crazy cleaning my tank right?
Not so fast. Doing too much at one time can cause your tank to crash. Only do a fair amount of maintenance a day. Doing too much than your equipment can handle will cause your ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate production to rise too much too fast. This is not so much about getting rid of the algae as much as it is improving your maintenance habits. If you fix your habits, the algae will be under control; and stay under control.

How do I avoid detritus buildup?
Well if you look around your tank, I'm sure you can find dead spots where water inst flowing very well. See if you can find some dead spots and fix them.

If you have a power head pointed directly at a rock, its gonna lodge a bunch of crud into there.

But I have friends coming over and I want my tank to look nice fast.
That's just too bad. The algae has be slowly gaining power overtime and getting stronger and stronger though weeks of work because you have detritus build up. If you think you can fix all that in one or two weeks, then you're out of luck.

But I have super duper deadly byopsis, cotton candy algae, (insert buzzword terrible evil algea here, AHHHH NITRATES ARE AT 11 PPM IM GONNA DIE, I NEED TO USE PHOSBAN ASAP. IM NEVER GONNA FEED MY FISH AGAIN!!!! MAYBE I NEED TO RIP OUT ALL MY ROCK AND TOSS IN IN BLEACH !!!! OR JUST CHANGE MY T5 BULBS AND IT WILL GO AWAY AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!)
Calm dowwwwwn. So what. All algae does the same thing. They feed off the ammonia produced by the detritus in your aquarium. You can carefully physically remove the algae just like normal, remain calm, dont do anything too fast, dont result to stupid quick fixes, and follow the algae bible.

Lots and lots of people are gonna tell you otherwise, but that's not their fault. They don't know any better.
This is your tank.
You've been given the algae bible. Follow the rules. If you don't use it, your tank will only have you to blame, not random people on the forums who suggested you try a couple of foolish quick fixes in a hobby based entirely on patience; based around the slowest changing thing in the entire world, the ocean.

_______________________________________________________

Its too late to turn back, you've already taken the red pill.

Good luck...

With respect, I struggle to see a method here.

Your 1 and 2 are mostly right, I don’t think adding H2O2 is good in large quantities due to its potential to cause other issues if overdosed. Small removal is harmless if algae is encroaching on a coral and if hard to mechanically pull, obviously people need to be very careful how they do it. Surely no quick fixes will work long term (for the most part) but sometimes may mean a difference between a tank crash and time to fight long term causes.

No.3- isn’t entirely accurate, we have enough evidence to show that corals and algae are in a fragile partnership that can quickly get out of hand either due to algal blooms or the phenomenon of “microbialization”. if natural reefs are any indication for our tanks once algae takes visible hold on a reef, it’s as good as dead or usually dead already...

No 4 - physical removal may not suffice, especially depending on the algae

5 - repeatitive but good advice

6 - point unclear

7 - I respectfully disagree, I think many of us with established reefs see negative consequences of removing herbivore fish in particular. @Thales perhaps has the best evidence in his reef with high nitrates and phosphate (and presumably same level of ammonia as other well established and cycled tanks) and no algae which he believes Is most likely due to herbivores (apologies if I paraphrased anything wrong).
I have undetectable nitrates without dosing , some phosphates and I overfeed like crazy. While I had my fish in the tank there was barely any algae. Now a month in a fallow tank and algae is everywhere... same nutrient levels and no feeding so arguably ammonia is even lower.

8. I have not seen evidence that detritus fuels any living organism, after a relatively short period of time the nutritional value should be low or zero. Detritus may provide a habitat for some organisms but it’s very unlikely that it would contribute to the establishment of an endemic crucial species...

 

[Fish_Sticks]

With respect, I struggle to see a method here.

Your 1 and 2 are mostly right, I don’t think adding H2O2 is good in large quantities due to its potential to cause other issues if overdosed. Small removal is harmless if algae is encroaching on a coral and if hard to mechanically pull, obviously people need to be very careful how they do it. Surely no quick fixes will work long term (for the most part) but sometimes may mean a difference between a tank crash and time to fight long term causes.

No.3- isn’t entirely accurate, we have enough evidence to show that corals and algae are in a fragile partnership that can quickly get out of hand either due to algal blooms or the phenomenon of “microbialization”. if natural reefs are any indication for our tanks once algae takes visible hold on a reef, it’s as good as dead or usually dead already...

No 4 - physical removal may not suffice, especially depending on the algae

5 - repeatitive but good advice

6 - point unclear

7 - I respectfully disagree, I think many of us with established reefs see negative consequences of removing herbivore fish in particular. @Thales perhaps has the best evidence in his reef with high nitrates and phosphate (and presumably same level of ammonia as other well established and cycled tanks) and no algae which he believes Is most likely due to herbivores (apologies if I paraphrased anything wrong).
I have undetectable nitrates without dosing , some phosphates and I overfeed like crazy. While I had my fish in the tank there was barely any algae. Now a month in a fallow tank and algae is everywhere... same nutrient levels and no feeding so arguably ammonia is even lower.

8. I have not seen evidence that detritus fuels any living organism, after a relatively short period of time the nutritional value should be low or zero. Detritus may provide a habitat for some organisms but it’s very unlikely that it would contribute to the establishment of an endemic crucial species...

The method when facing algae issues is to gradually and overtime:

Remove detritus
Increase surface area for bacteria
Manually remove or brush off algae
Address dead spots and detritus collection areas
Addressing your equipment
Then consider adding herbivores depending on how the algae reacts over the months to your actions.

To clarify, 7 is in support of adding herbivores.

Im not suggesting anything new here, just putting it together into an easy algae outbreak reaction strategy that doesnt include h2o2 and blackouts, for reasons already mentioned.

 

[Fish_Sticks]

As I said before, it seems the thread is leaning towards discussion on overall tank strategies.
The algae bible is not necessarily an overall tank keeping strategy. It is an easy algae outbreak reaction strategy that can teach patience and have a low impact on your tank. Others can integrate parts of the algae bible in their maintenance or overall tank strategy, if they wish and if it fits with their ideas, goals, and current tank keeping strategy.

 

[EmdeReef]

As I said before, it seems the thread is leaning towards discussion on overall tank strategies.
The algae bible is not necessarily an overall tank keeping strategy. It is an easy algae outbreak reaction strategy that can teach patience and have a low impact on your tank. Others can integrate parts of the algae bible in their maintenance or overall tank strategy, if they wish and if it fits with their ideas, goals, and current tank keeping strategy.

I’m just pointing out that you haven’t taken into consideration too many factors to call this the algae bible. It is a personal experience under specific circumstances and as such valuable for this forum.

With some improvements from other members we may get closer to calling it the algae bible. Don’t mean to be harsh, hope you won’t take my comments the wrong way.

Two last things from me, keep in mind that different algae require different management techniques and will be of different urgency to resolve with a combination of short and long term fixes. Some of the fixes may be on your list but certainly not all.

Also would be helpful if you defined detritus, removing uneaten food will help, removing weeks or months old stuff from a sump or blowing it off the rocks will have zero effect on nutrients and algae etc.

. Just my 2c for the bible

 

[Monkeytank]

Lasse, with your method of a lot of grazing, do you have any recommendation on how many snails, crabs, etc, are a good amount per gallon? Basically, any guidance on how many grazers one should have?

 

[Hemmdog]

I don’t trust any case study using black sand, as it’s known to release heavy metals and mess things up anyways. ICP tests have proved this time and time again.

 

[Scott Campbell]

As I said before, it seems the thread is leaning towards discussion on overall tank strategies.
The algae bible is not necessarily an overall tank keeping strategy. It is an easy algae outbreak reaction strategy that can teach patience and have a low impact on your tank. Others can integrate parts of the algae bible in their maintenance or overall tank strategy, if they wish and if it fits with their ideas, goals, and current tank keeping strategy.

Perhaps you don't need an "algae bible" if you have a good tank strategy.

I don't ever siphon out or even disturb detritus, have an entire tank filled with "dead spots", never manually remove algae, don't do anything to increase surface area for bacteria and have zero visible algae in my display tank. Simply because my herbivores consume the algae as fast as it grows. The concept is pretty straightforward. The same principal kept my refrigerator free of nutrients when my boys were teenagers. That said - it can take a while balancing herbivores to algae growth. As my foxface and urchin have grown in size I now have to supplement with seaweed just to make sure the herbivores get enough plant matter.

 

[jda]

This thread kinda made me sad. While completely true that organisms can get nitrogen from ammonia, this is like chemistry and tank keeping 101. Does nobody ready Dr. Holmes-Farley's articles anymore, or Wet Web Media or Advance Aquarist? Everybody should know this stuff. ...seems like if there is not a BRS video on it, then it is not worth knowing.

/get off my lawn

 

[Fish_Sticks]

I don’t trust any case study using black sand, as it’s known to release heavy metals and mess things up anyways. ICP tests have proved this time and time again.

If you think the sand made a difference, more power to you. I also used tap water during the entire process @ 50TDS

This thread kinda made me sad. While completely true that organisms can get nitrogen from ammonia, this is like chemistry and tank keeping 101. Does nobody ready Dr. Holmes-Farley's articles anymore, or Wet Web Media or Advance Aquarist? Everybody should know this stuff. ...seems like if there is not a BRS video on it, then it is not worth knowing.

/get off my lawn

Go look at the algae help forum.
Full of people wondering why they have algae problems with 0 nitrates and their corals are dying. It was even worse a few years ago when all you knuckle heads were striving for 0 nitrates. Not everyone is as educated as you. Especially the algae help forum full of random new people hungry for knowledge.

People come here to learn and discuss, and im sure a a lot of people learned some things from this discussion.

I wonder why it makes you sad that people learn on a reef forum? Thats the entire point here.

Not to all gather around and read things written by Farley.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

This thread kinda made me sad. While completely true that organisms can get nitrogen from ammonia, this is like chemistry and tank keeping 101. Does nobody ready Dr. Holmes-Farley's articles anymore, or Wet Web Media or Advance Aquarist? Everybody should know this stuff. ...seems like if there is not a BRS video on it, then it is not worth knowing.

/get off my lawn

Hahahaha.

You forgot ;Oldman!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

If you think the sand made a difference, more power to you. I also used tap water during the entire process @ 50TDS



Go look at the algae help forum.
Full of people wondering why they have algae problems with 0 nitrates and their corals are dying. It was even worse a few years ago when all you knuckle heads were striving for 0 nitrates. Not everyone is as educated as you. Especially the algae help forum full of random new people hungry for knowledge.

People come here to learn and discuss, and im sure a a lot of people learned some things from this discussion.

I wonder why it makes you sad that people learn on a reef forum? Thats the entire point here.

Not to all gather around and read things written by Farley.

Please refrain from personal attacks.

It’s a good convo and if one is paying attention to who’s looking at this on the viewers at top , many are learning from the discussion.

It’s alwasy a good Reccomendation to read Farley and his interpretation. Actually in his dream tank, his only desire for automated monitoring was ammonia.

 

[Fish_Sticks]

Not a personal attack but w/e

 

[Hemmdog]

Not a personal attack but w/e

I felt attacked lol, jk

 

[BZOFIQ]

... I also used tap water during the entire process @ 50TDS

I too have ran a very successful softies tank for 6 years strictly on NY Tap water.

Very few water changes, never chased numbers, had ton of live rock, skimmer, active fuge, more live rock rubble in the sump and a 180G tank filled with corals and coraline that would eat powerheads for breakfast.

Broke down after 6 years due to move.

Do you see any nuisance algae.

2009

2013

 

[Fish_Sticks]

I too have ran a very successful softies tank for 6 years strictly on NY Tap water.

Very few water changes, never chased numbers, had ton of live rock, skimmer, active fuge, more live rock rubble in the sump and a 180G tank filled with corals and coraline that would eat powerheads for breakfast.

Broke down after 6 years due to move.

Do you see any nuisance algae.

2009

2013

I'll take a nice softie tank shot over SPS any day. Nice work!

 

[Lasse]

Full of people wondering why they have algae problems with 0 nitrates and their corals are dying.

Are you refereing to cyanobacteria as an algae problem?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Fish_Sticks]

Are you refereing to cyanobacteria as an algae problem?

Sincerely Lasse

They're bacteria, of course, but the way I react to them and methods I would use in the case of a large outbreak would be the same as algae. Yes they are primarily photosynthetic, but cutting the lights off is not an option and only messes up the tank's balance. They arise mainly due to a flow problem or, sometimes, a nutrient imbalance.

I've dealt with a big cyano outbreaks before. I increased the flow to the problem areas, blasted the rock once, and they dissipated over the course of a few weeks. Whether or not my involvement caused their demise is entirely up to speculation. I could most likely have let them alone and they would have gone away as my tank sought equilibrium.

With bryopsis and red bubble algae, I identified their existence early, cut off what I could find and netted it out. The small amount left over melted away over the next month or two.

I don't get rid of algae unless I see it has potential to become big problem. The tank takes care of most small starting cultures of algae I encounter. I like to think of a manageable amount algae as a problem in the eyes of the tank owner, and a gift to the tank, fishes, and coral.

But when algae populations grow too strong and GHA is growing on your coral skeletons, pull out the algae bible to tame it down a little bit and then, wait, wait again, and see if your tank can find balance.