40 Breeder Sump & Refugium Design

[User]

Have you tested to see if there is a noise difference between the two? Would interesting to know.

Between the two?

 

[Reef-junky]

Between the two?

Yeah. I’m sure the vibrations are small but it would be good to know if there is a noise reduction. Maybe DC pumps are smooth enough that it doesn’t matter.

 

[User]

Yeah.

Confused.

Between the two whats?

And ‘noise difference’?

Or have I interloped into a convo not involving me?

 

[Reef-junky]

I mean is there a difference for a DC pump in hard piped to the pump vs a small run of hose in noise.

 

[User]

I mean is there a difference for a DC pump in hard piped to the pump vs a small run of hose in noise.

Aah.

Haven’t tried, and don’t have the means.

Besides- it’s completely silent hard-plumbed anyway.

 

[OMGitsManBearPig]

Regardless of vibration mitigation needs, I still prefer to have a run of soft tubing over hard plumbing straight to the pump. The soft tubing lets you fudge things a bit better. It's also piece of mind that you aren't putting any stress on the plumbing/glass it's attached to when you do maintenance. It's also a reasonably functional shock-absorber for impacts on the line.

Remember - if you don't have anything flexible at all in your return line, then every time you bump it or bang into it with an algae magnet or whatever... much of that energy is transferred straight to the bulkheads. Personally, I don't want to torque that plastic connection any more than I have to.

I know it's a few extras bucks and more parts that can create additional potential sources of failure - but I still personally prefer to have some kind of shock absorption somewhere in the line.

 

[User]

Regardless of vibration mitigation needs, I still prefer to have a run of soft tubing over hard plumbing straight to the pump. The soft tubing lets you fudge things a bit better. It's also piece of mind that you aren't putting any stress on the plumbing/glass it's attached to when you do maintenance. It's also a reasonably functional shock-absorber for impacts on the line.

Remember - if you don't have anything flexible at all in your return line, then every time you bump it or bang into it with an algae magnet or whatever... much of that energy is transferred straight to the bulkheads. Personally, I don't want to torque that plastic connection any more than I have to.

I know it's a few extras bucks and more parts that can create additional potential sources of failure - but I still personally prefer to have some kind of shock absorption somewhere in the line.

Sure- if I plumbed my return through a bulkhead, I’d definitely put a bit more flexibility in there. However, I’m plumbing up and over, and I have 2 feet of flex pvc halfway up the 26 foot run of pvc.

In the return chamber of the sump, there is no physical connection of the pump to any glass. Sure, it sits on the glass, but There is no way to transfer the torque from a bumped pump to the glass. No risk of damage.

If I’m bumping the pump hard enough that the lack of flexibility in the plumbing results in a broken volute, or a sheared off hanger/clamp, then I deserve all I get for hulk smashing my way through my sump room [emoji16]

 

[User]

Going with PVC, maybe 5 feet or less on the return. Trying to use 45° joints, instead of 90° joints, but I will have to use at least one 90° joint as it goes into the DT. Is there a formula I could apply to help size the return pump correctly?

BRS did a video showing no flow difference between a 90 degree and 2x 45 degree bends. FWIW.

If you really want to avoid hard turns- spa flex pvc in a big curve will be your friend.

 

[User]

Fluctuations in water level - sure - a "bigger" return would result in more gradual changes in water level given an equal amount of evaporation.

Fluctuations in salinity of water is another story - which is a problem if that is where you put your ATO sensors - which you typically would.

We have to more clearly define "bigger return."

My logic tells me that the bigger the surface area of the section in which you put your ATO sensors, the more salinity rises for a given drop in water level.
Using simple numbers to make the math easy, imagine a small return vs a larger return chamber that has 10 times the surface area. It would take 10 times more evaporation to move the water down the same depth in the large return vs the small return. So think about the distance from min. to max. ATO sensors - the smaller less surface area return section would have 10 times less less fluctuation in the salinity before activating the make up water pump all other variables being equal.

Obviously, spacing the min/max sensors for an ATO closer together is a solution, if your ATO setup allows for this type of customization.
It's really a balancing act. Less return chamber surface area means more water level delta and more frequent ATO operation. Keep in mind, if you have less depth and less surface area in the smaller return, thats the equation for less volume - meaning you have less time to react before you have pump damage - potentially. A larger return section depth means you have more time to fix a problem with flow before pump failure.

I would say that my main requirement in a return section is depth of water. More depth means more opportunity to identify and work a problem. Smaller surface area, more depth. For these reasons, I like that you chose to divide the return section in half. By halving the return, you are doubling the water level delta (depth change) for a given amount of evaporation. Your ATO will run more often for less time each cycle. With a robust ATO, this will mean a more stable salinity.

To play devils advocate (I largely agree with most of your post, that balancing ATO sensor position is dependent on return chamber size)-

Make sure your return chamber isn’t too big, in that, if the pump was to pump it dry and send all that water to the DT (ie if your overflows get blocked) then your DT has enough residual unused capacity that it can take that water volume.

If you have your DT water level an inch below the rim, and this equates to (for example) 9 gallons of space, and your return chamber is 12 gallons... where is that last 3 gallons going?

FWIW I haven’t used this consideration in my builds since I did a bean animal drain system. Blockage failures in all 3 drains at once is statistically extremely unlikely.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

No problem- glad to help.

Just be aware that those pumps seem to be putting out half the flow they should of compared to the curve, but only as you increase the head. I have mine going up 6’, 14 feet horizontal then up 6 more feet to my DT and I’m getting 1200gph at 100%.

Since I only want to put 3x DT volume (180) through my sump per hour, this is still way more than I need. But ymmv since you are going Triton and need 10x or thereabouts, right?

What is Triton?

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

Have you tested to see if there is a noise difference between the two? Would interesting to know.

I haven't run anything yet. My AC pumps in my freshwater tanks have either a hose section, or the return is entirely hose so vibration wouldn't be much of an issue with those either.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

To play devils advocate (I largely agree with most of your post, that balancing ATO sensor position is dependent on return chamber size)-

Make sure your return chamber isn’t too big, in that, if the pump was to pump it dry and send all that water to the DT (ie if your overflows get blocked) then your DT has enough residual unused capacity that it can take that water volume.

If you have your DT water level an inch below the rim, and this equates to (for example) 9 gallons of space, and your return chamber is 12 gallons... where is that last 3 gallons going?

FWIW I haven’t used this consideration in my builds since I did a bean animal drain system. Blockage failures in all 3 drains at once is statistically extremely unlikely.

I'm going with a Bean Animal system as well.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

BRS did a video showing no flow difference between a 90 degree and 2x 45 degree bends. FWIW.

If you really want to avoid hard turns- spa flex pvc in a big curve will be your friend.

First I've heard of spa flex. This could be helpful.

 

[User]

What is Triton?

It’s a method of running your tank that is heavily dependent upon a diverse, large refugium fed at high flow, then additives in lieu of doing water changes

Some reason I thought you mentioned it

 

[User]

First I've heard of spa flex. This could be helpful.

Flexible pvc pipe. It’s going to blow. Your. Mind. Regarding plumbing options

This is 2 feet doing an s-curve in 2 planes. This is my return line going from basement through floor to office

 

[Fin]

First I've heard of spa flex. This could be helpful.

This stuff is 40% more flexible than Spa-Flex. Easier to use.
https://www.glass-holes.com/1-EZ-Flow-Flexible-PVC-Pipe-ft-FT1385.htm

 

[Reef-junky]

You could also just run hose between runs of pipe instead of 45’s or 90’s. There is really no right or wrong way to do it. The idea is to minimize flow loss as much as possible. Just like designing a sump there are some things that work better then others but it’s really about what works for you.

 

[User]

This stuff is 40% more flexible than Spa-Flex. Easier to use.
https://www.glass-holes.com/1-EZ-Flow-Flexible-PVC-Pipe-ft-FT1385.htm

It’s also 5x more expensive than spa flex from some people online.

But yeah- if you don’t care that it’s black- id recommend that super flexible stuff

 

[Fin]

It’s also 5x more expensive than spa flex from some people online.

But yeah- if you don’t care that it’s black- id recommend that super flexible stuff

You can buy in bulk and get it cheaper. Here is the 1" for $1.99 ft for a 25ft roll, instead of $4.99 for small amounts with no minimum. Combined with black fittings, it can look nice too. It really helps if you are working in tight spaces and need sharper bends.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

It’s a method of running your tank that is heavily dependent upon a diverse, large refugium fed at high flow, then additives in lieu of doing water changes

Some reason I thought you mentioned it

Had no idea it had a name, but yes.