Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

takitaj

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I'm thinking maybe I should have posted here instead of the main dino thread because I had LC Amph.. I beat these b@stards back recently. I did it with large, daily doses of Vibrant and MB7 afterwards to restore some balance and everything survived without issue. You can see how over there. Good luck!
 

AbjectMaelstroM

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Y’all are giving me hope. Been dealing with LC for 2 years now. I’ve been dosing silica for 2 months and started to lose hope. I did 2 weeks of MB7 daily also with no change.
For me, I'm not sure if it's because I caught them early, but it took about 5 months. I basically stopped messing with it and just did MB7 25ml/daily and silica to keep it around 1.5ppm.

Other than that, no WC, justaintain nutrients and the the big 3 (Ca, MG, Alk).

It seemed the more input I had the worse it got, so I just mostly let it roll. That being said, I have mostly LPS/hammers/torches and just 7 frags of acros... But everyone made it through without any issues (I did blow the frags off every couple of days).
 

Auburn866

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For me, I'm not sure if it's because I caught them early, but it took about 5 months. I basically stopped messing with it and just did MB7 25ml/daily and silica to keep it around 1.5ppm.

Other than that, no WC, justaintain nutrients and the the big 3 (Ca, MG, Alk).

It seemed the more input I had the worse it got, so I just mostly let it roll. That being said, I have mostly LPS/hammers/torches and just 7 frags of acros... But everyone made it through without any issues (I did blow the frags off every couple of days).
I’m holding silica at 2-3 ppm and keeping nutrients up. Hopefully that’s enough, mine is 80% on the substrate. I tried not doing water changes but my coral didn’t respond well so I resumed bi-weekly water changes.
 

badams.one

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My progress towards white sand has been going well. Shortly after that photo I had somewhat of a relapse despite changing nothing, but for the past month I have been only dosing @AlgaeBarn phyto while making sure my phosphate and nitrate are elevated and here I am today. The past two weeks has progressed the most.
B1A1AB30-ECA7-4638-8F95-35C9E81A824F.jpeg
I'm glad to hear this is working for you. I too have tried everything you've mentioned and didn't see much result until I started adding phyto. I've recently ran out and just placed an order for a larger bottle as I plan to increase my dosing.


On a side note, I recently received my test results back from ATI and was hoping @mcarroll and @Randy Holmes-Farley would be kind enough to review and provide guidance on next steps to get some much needed help to my corals. //lab.atiaquaristik.com/share/1ff5ad503c5df21b8f3d

My concern, I've done one water change in about three months, so wasn't surprised to see my trace elements, iodine etc. low, which I assume is related to some coral die off. Below are some questions I have for the group as I feel my next steps are critical to save my coral:

1) Can I dose any trace elements, iodine in particular, without making the dino's worse?

2) I'm thinking about doing a water change once I scrape off and remove as much of the GHA and cyano from the glass and rocks where possible to get the trapped nutrients out. I would then replace my GFO to absorb any phosphates now not being consumed by these algaes. Please note, I added the GFO a month or so ago long after my battle with dino's started. I've always had somewhat elevated phosphates around .15-.20 ppm. Being that I've never had a low nutrient issue I was of the mindset that I need to get a handle on my nutrients to help with the dino, thus I decided to run GFO.

3) I've always had relatively high phosphates and low nitrates. I added an algae reactor a year or so ago in an effort to help get the phosphates down via Chaeto. I think this had the opposite affect and reduced my nitrates down further, resulting in an imbalance of bacteria leading to where I'm at today. I see a lot of mention about a nitrate to phosphate ratio, but am not sure if I'm thinking about this correctly?

4) I'm not sure why my salinity reads so low as I regularly test and calibrate my refractometer to 1.026. I have a question into ATI to confirm what temperature the test was performed at. Is there anything else in this report I should address that I can address without causing a flare up?

I sincerely appreciate everyone's time, opinions and guidance on this.
 

DrMMI

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I upgraded the lights on the tank in my office, started awc changes, and started running gfo for phosphates of 0.5. My nutrients never hit 0 and yet I ended up with dinos there as well. Now I have two tanks with LC amphidium. I did a 3 day blackout followed by elegant corals dino method and dosed phytoplankton daily. The tank was looking great for about a month. Right when I was considering resuming 1% daily awc, I went into the office today after a 3 day weekend and my sand is all brown again. Nitrates are around 8 and phosphates are 0.84 (not a typo).

My question is, do I continue to let the phosphates rise? So far my coral doesn't seem to mind. At one point when I first bought this tank and I wasn't testing regularly, the phosphates got to 3.0! The only sign that something was wrong was my coraline algae disappeared. How high is too high? Should I dose nitrates to get them more in line with the expected ratio?
 

thedon986

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I upgraded the lights on the tank in my office, started awc changes, and started running gfo for phosphates of 0.5. My nutrients never hit 0 and yet I ended up with dinos there as well. Now I have two tanks with LC amphidium. I did a 3 day blackout followed by elegant corals dino method and dosed phytoplankton daily. The tank was looking great for about a month. Right when I was considering resuming 1% daily awc, I went into the office today after a 3 day weekend and my sand is all brown again. Nitrates are around 8 and phosphates are 0.84 (not a typo).

My question is, do I continue to let the phosphates rise? So far my coral doesn't seem to mind. At one point when I first bought this tank and I wasn't testing regularly, the phosphates got to 3.0! The only sign that something was wrong was my coraline algae disappeared. How high is too high? Should I dose nitrates to get them more in line with the expected ratio?
I don’t think there is any reason to leave them that high and that crazy imbalance might be why the dinos are back. That’s a really bad imbalance. I would shoot for .07-.1 and nitrates right where they are. You can use lanthanum chloride to drop just phosphates.
 

ScottB

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I'm glad to hear this is working for you. I too have tried everything you've mentioned and didn't see much result until I started adding phyto. I've recently ran out and just placed an order for a larger bottle as I plan to increase my dosing.


On a side note, I recently received my test results back from ATI and was hoping @mcarroll and @Randy Holmes-Farley would be kind enough to review and provide guidance on next steps to get some much needed help to my corals. //lab.atiaquaristik.com/share/1ff5ad503c5df21b8f3d

My concern, I've done one water change in about three months, so wasn't surprised to see my trace elements, iodine etc. low, which I assume is related to some coral die off. Below are some questions I have for the group as I feel my next steps are critical to save my coral:

1) Can I dose any trace elements, iodine in particular, without making the dino's worse?

2) I'm thinking about doing a water change once I scrape off and remove as much of the GHA and cyano from the glass and rocks where possible to get the trapped nutrients out. I would then replace my GFO to absorb any phosphates now not being consumed by these algaes. Please note, I added the GFO a month or so ago long after my battle with dino's started. I've always had somewhat elevated phosphates around .15-.20 ppm. Being that I've never had a low nutrient issue I was of the mindset that I need to get a handle on my nutrients to help with the dino, thus I decided to run GFO.

3) I've always had relatively high phosphates and low nitrates. I added an algae reactor a year or so ago in an effort to help get the phosphates down via Chaeto. I think this had the opposite affect and reduced my nitrates down further, resulting in an imbalance of bacteria leading to where I'm at today. I see a lot of mention about a nitrate to phosphate ratio, but am not sure if I'm thinking about this correctly?

4) I'm not sure why my salinity reads so low as I regularly test and calibrate my refractometer to 1.026. I have a question into ATI to confirm what temperature the test was performed at. Is there anything else in this report I should address that I can address without causing a flare up?

I sincerely appreciate everyone's time, opinions and guidance on this.
Salinity aside, I don't see any issues in your ATI results.

As to fighting LC amphids, I see no mention of 2 major tools in the battle but I might have missed.
a) the feeding of competitive diatoms with SpongeExcel (silicates).
b) the addition of licve rock to get some micro-bio diversity

Your phosphates are not elevated IMO. Here is a pic of .1 to .15 with about 10 parts NO3.
Right side.JPG
 

ScottB

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I apologize if this has been covered before.

Is silicate dosing effective against all dino or just the Amphidinium strain?
Largely LC amphids as they are sand hugging and less toxic than others. If you are fighting another dino that has chosen to abide in the sand (prorocentrum do this often) you could give it a try. The point of dosing silicates is for feeding competitive diatoms.

@Tuffloud1 what are you doing here?
 

chema

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Salinity aside, I don't see any issues in your ATI results.

As to fighting LC amphids, I see no mention of 2 major tools in the battle but I might have missed.
a) the feeding of competitive diatoms with SpongeExcel (silicates).
b) the addition of licve rock to get some micro-bio diversity

Your phosphates are not elevated IMO. Here is a pic of .1 to .15 with about 10 parts NO3.
Right side.JPG
Salinity aside, I don't see any issues in your ATI results.

As to fighting LC amphids, I see no mention of 2 major tools in the battle but I might have missed.
a) the feeding of competitive diatoms with SpongeExcel (silicates).
b) the addition of licve rock to get some micro-bio diversity

Your phosphates are not elevated IMO. Here is a pic of .1 to .15 with about 10 parts NO3.
Right side.JPG

Hi Scott: would you also recommend the addition of live sand? I have a severe plague of LC Amphidinium just in the sand; they are not touching the rock. Besides addition of sodium silicate and massive amounts of bacteria and phytplancton I am considering live sand.
 

Reefer Dan

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I’ve been running filter floss in the back of my tank (28g nanocube) and changing it out about every 2-3 days. Here are a couple microscope slides of what the filter floss looks like when I change it.

Questions:
-To me it looks like LC amphidinium getting caught in the filter floss, but I thought they don’t go into the water column? Am I mistaken on this ID? (I know I have some LC in sand)
-Is it possible that the diatoms could be bringing the LC into the water column with them due to the mucus mats?
-While dosing silicate to induce a diatom bloom, is it counterproductive to run filter floss?
-I haven’t been running a UV sterilizer, would you recommend starting one?
- what is the long term game plan in the event I somehow extinguish these dinos? I haven’t found a lot of info on that.

Thanks everyone!

338A54B5-CF6B-43E7-BAA3-2095DBCD6BDA.jpeg A9DA2B9E-8A8B-4DBB-8492-0B2D46282631.jpeg
 

ScottB

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Hi Scott: would you also recommend the addition of live sand? I have a severe plague of LC Amphidinium just in the sand; they are not touching the rock. Besides addition of sodium silicate and massive amounts of bacteria and phytplancton I am considering live sand.
That is a tough call. Not all live sand is created equal. If you are certain it can provide some bacterial and microbial diversity then yes. Live rock -- if you can find it -- is even better.
 

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I’ve been running filter floss in the back of my tank (28g nanocube) and changing it out about every 2-3 days. Here are a couple microscope slides of what the filter floss looks like when I change it.

Questions:
-To me it looks like LC amphidinium getting caught in the filter floss, but I thought they don’t go into the water column? Am I mistaken on this ID? (I know I have some LC in sand)
-Is it possible that the diatoms could be bringing the LC into the water column with them due to the mucus mats?
-While dosing silicate to induce a diatom bloom, is it counterproductive to run filter floss?
-I haven’t been running a UV sterilizer, would you recommend starting one?
- what is the long term game plan in the event I somehow extinguish these dinos? I haven’t found a lot of info on that.

Thanks everyone!

338A54B5-CF6B-43E7-BAA3-2095DBCD6BDA.jpeg A9DA2B9E-8A8B-4DBB-8492-0B2D46282631.jpeg

I also see LC Amphids. Shooting video is generally more conclusive. If they move around like a Roomba that is pretty convincing.
Not sure how/why they are making their way into the filter. Might argue that UV COULD be useful although not generally recommended for these.
Manual removal filtering are fine. Lost argue against disturbing the sand bed tho.

Long term is bacterial and microbial diversity and health to suppress dino expansion. Keep nutrients available and relatively stable. Add some live rock/rubble. Could try some stuff from IPSF.com
 

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I also see LC Amphids. Shooting video is generally more conclusive. If they move around like a Roomba that is pretty convincing.
Not sure how/why they are making their way into the filter. Might argue that UV COULD be useful although not generally recommended for these.
Manual removal filtering are fine. Lost argue against disturbing the sand bed tho.

Long term is bacterial and microbial diversity and health to suppress dino expansion. Keep nutrients available and relatively stable. Add some live rock/rubble. Could try some stuff from IPSF.com
Thank you @ScottB. These ones weren’t moving and so maybe as they did they get released into the water column? (Likely hopeful thinking). I have placed an order to ipsf and should be getting it next week.

Hoping to grab some pieces of rock/rubble from a LFS this weekend and putting it in (maybe 1-2#).. this part makes me nervous and I’m not exactly sure what we specifically are looking for in pieces of LR to add.
 

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Thank you @ScottB. These ones weren’t moving and so maybe as they did they get released into the water column? (Likely hopeful thinking). I have placed an order to ipsf and should be getting it next week.

Hoping to grab some pieces of rock/rubble from a LFS this weekend and putting it in (maybe 1-2#).. this part makes me nervous and I’m not exactly sure what we specifically are looking for in pieces of LR to add.
If they weren't moving they must've died. Perhaps that is how they made it to the overflow.

If the LFS has sump rock, you get most of the advantages and least of the potential hitchhiker stuff. This should come from either a dedicated system or a reef system. Not a FOWLR as they may have run copper at some point. If it is display rock, inspect the whole aquascape for mojanos and aiptasia. In terms of diversity, the older the system the better pretty much.

I've not dealt with IPSF but they have a solid reputation.

None of this is overnight fix stuff for dinos, just a long term competitive booster shot.
 

badams.one

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Salinity aside, I don't see any issues in your ATI results.

As to fighting LC amphids, I see no mention of 2 major tools in the battle but I might have missed.
a) the feeding of competitive diatoms with SpongeExcel (silicates).
b) the addition of licve rock to get some micro-bio diversity

Your phosphates are not elevated IMO. Here is a pic of .1 to .15 with about 10 parts NO3.
Right side.JPG
Appreciate the feedback bud. Dosing silicates is the one thing I haven't tried. I agree that my phosphates aren't too high as my tank has done well over the years, but feel they are heavily imbalanced compared to nitrates and is perhaps why I have this bacterial imbalance.

As mentioned in my earlier post I really think I need to do a water change to get my salinity, iodine and barium up. I think my acros are starting to die because of this and the lack in water changes. What are your thoughts on the following?

Is it possible to dose any trace elements, iodine in particular, without making the dino's worse? My test results reported very low Iodine and Barium and think I need to at minimum get those up.

I'm also thinking about doing a water change once I scrape off and remove as much of the GHA and cyano from the glass and rocks where possible to get the trapped nutrients out. I would then replace my GFO to absorb any phosphates now not being consumed by these algaes. Being that I've never had an issue with low nutrients I'm of the mind set I need to get my nutrients down, rather than up. What are your thoughts?
 

ScottB

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Appreciate the feedback bud. Dosing silicates is the one thing I haven't tried. I agree that my phosphates aren't too high as my tank has done well over the years, but feel they are heavily imbalanced compared to nitrates and is perhaps why I have this bacterial imbalance.

As mentioned in my earlier post I really think I need to do a water change to get my salinity, iodine and barium up. I think my acros are starting to die because of this and the lack in water changes. What are your thoughts on the following?

Is it possible to dose any trace elements, iodine in particular, without making the dino's worse? My test results reported very low Iodine and Barium and think I need to at minimum get those up.

I'm also thinking about doing a water change once I scrape off and remove as much of the GHA and cyano from the glass and rocks where possible to get the trapped nutrients out. I would then replace my GFO to absorb any phosphates now not being consumed by these algaes. Being that I've never had an issue with low nutrients I'm of the mind set I need to get my nutrients down, rather than up. What are your thoughts?
Since we are talking about LC amphids here -- which require the patience of Job to overcome -- I have no issue with you doing whatever you feel is in the best interest of your acropora. WCs, trace, whatever. Tend to them first, the amphids can wait. And wait. The consensus is that these are the least toxic species we see in aquariums. They are unlikely to be directly responsible for acro troubles aside from their ability to out-consume acropora for nutrient and other elements. In my experience with ostreopsis, I did note depleted potassium and Iodine.
 

ScottB

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Appreciate the feedback bud. Dosing silicates is the one thing I haven't tried. I agree that my phosphates aren't too high as my tank has done well over the years, but feel they are heavily imbalanced compared to nitrates and is perhaps why I have this bacterial imbalance.

As mentioned in my earlier post I really think I need to do a water change to get my salinity, iodine and barium up. I think my acros are starting to die because of this and the lack in water changes. What are your thoughts on the following?

Is it possible to dose any trace elements, iodine in particular, without making the dino's worse? My test results reported very low Iodine and Barium and think I need to at minimum get those up.

I'm also thinking about doing a water change once I scrape off and remove as much of the GHA and cyano from the glass and rocks where possible to get the trapped nutrients out. I would then replace my GFO to absorb any phosphates now not being consumed by these algaes. Being that I've never had an issue with low nutrients I'm of the mind set I need to get my nutrients down, rather than up. What are your thoughts?
I didn't answer your second set of questions regarding nutrients. The imbalance MAY have something to do with the dinos, but in my experience it certainly has something to do with the cyano. How low are nitrates? If they are near zero, I would dose sodium nitrate into MY system. It would actually lower my phosphates. But my system is different from yours as I can only grow film algae, a little wire algae, but no GHA.

Be super careful with the GFO. Stuff really does work and a little too well sometimes once the rock nears depletion. That last leg down from .05 to zero can happen exponentially faster than the first .10 of reduction. Careful.
 

badams.one

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I didn't answer your second set of questions regarding nutrients. The imbalance MAY have something to do with the dinos, but in my experience it certainly has something to do with the cyano. How low are nitrates? If they are near zero, I would dose sodium nitrate into MY system. It would actually lower my phosphates. But my system is different from yours as I can only grow film algae, a little wire algae, but no GHA.

Be super careful with the GFO. Stuff really does work and a little too well sometimes once the rock nears depletion. That last leg down from .05 to zero can happen exponentially faster than the first .10 of reduction. Careful.
My nitrates are okay.. between 4-8. My phosphate was near .20 ppm when I added the gfo a couple months ago. Dropped them to where they're at today, .06 ppm with no noticable change in the dino. Appreciate the heads up and feedback.
 

chema

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I agree that nutrient imbalance is of paramount importance. But then the key ssue is, what is the balance point? A NO3/PO4 ratio of 50, 100, 150? Would be great to know that.

In my case I would say that bad things (Amphidinium and then cyano) began to happen when that ratio was over 200 (NO3, 10-15; PO4, 0,05). Now I got that ratio around 80 (NO3, 8 and PO4, 0,1) and I'm seeing some improvement with both cyano and Amphidinium (for sure with cyano).

However the right ratio may depend a lot on the bacterial communities thriving in each tank. How could you get some information on this? The aquarium brands that sell bacterial formulates do not specify the bacterial species in those formulates. I think that, in terms of natural biodiversity, a better option would be the periodic addition of new live rock and/or sand.
 

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