Another attempt at fixing Apex EB832
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GillMeister
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Has anyone compiled a list of improvements, like this one, that could head off a potential disaster? For the second time I've nearly had my tank wiped out by a breakdown with my Apex. I would like to avoid another.
Some of us rely so much on our control systems that it really makes sense for us to take the initiative and upgrade before repairs are needed.
Some of us rely so much on our control systems that it really makes sense for us to take the initiative and upgrade before repairs are needed.
OfficeReefer
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I actually need to take a second one apart and see what happened to it actually. I speculate moisture got inside and shorted out the unit.Some of my previous repairs:
Radion XR30 complete no light repair
My previous electronic equipment repairs Radion XR15: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/radion-lights-board-level-repair.774331/#post-8197536 A fellow reefer mailed me their Ecotech Radion for repair service as it's long been out of warranty. The unit turns on briefly before shutting down and...www.reef2reef.com
Radion Lights Board Level Repair
I enjoy an occasional board level repair. It gives me a new angle to this hobby, which is often very heavy on DIY. In this thread I'm going to post some of my more interesting and challenging repairs, picture heavy, including high magnification microscope imagery. Recently, I got ahold of a...AI Hydra Fan Connector Repair - Significant Corrosion
My previous electronic equipment repair projects Radion XR15: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/radion-lights-board-level-repair.774331/ Radion XR30: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/radion-xr30-complete-no-light-repair.792711/ Imagine a problem with a connector breaking off the board...
First off, let me give a lot of credit to @MadeForThat for bringing this issue up in his excellent post earlier:
I think that a lot of people can benefit from this type of information.Fixing an EB832 with non-functional outlets but does have functional indicator lights
CAUTION- I am not liable for any damages to your person or property. This is offered as a possible solution to an electrical problem, and with this territory comes risk to your health and property that may not be directly mentioned. You should only attempt this repair if you are sure of your own...
I've also been wanting to write about this for sometime. Was just looking for a good opportunity. Alas, I didn't have to wait too long: I received a broken EB832 from a fellow reefer for repair and before opening the unit, I already new exactly what the problem is going to be.
But just knowing is not going to do this poor EB832 any good, we need to get it working again. So let's open it up. Notice that this particular EB832 is very very clean. There is no salt, oxidation or anything inside or outside that would suggest that the failure is due to negligence. So what is wrong then?
Oh, look! There it is, like that shy girl at a prom dance, sitting in the corner, wondering if anyone will notice her:
Yes, this is our little 12V AC to DC power supply. model YS-5V1ASZD. Its only purpose in life is to provide power to a couple of controllers so that the EB832 can communicate with Apex head unit over aquabus. Well, that and also so that it can switch outlets on and off. Both tasks are kind of critical to the proper operation of the entire unit.
Like oxygen to a brain.
So just like that shy prom girl, our little PSU has a big heart filled with the motivation to do the best it can to make this humongous unit a better place, by providing power to critical components. But it doesn't know yet that it really can't do that. Or it really shouldn't be forced into this situation. Why? Let's take a closer look at the PSU:
From the markings, we would assume that it is a 5V 1A power supply, but it is not. It is a 12V PSU, 500mA. Should be plenty big to empower those ICs. The design is very common, I believe this particular one is open sourced and widely available. On the board we see all kinds of prefilters, coils, capacitors. So why can't it do what it was designed for? Let's take a slightly different angle:
First, can you see a somewhat bulged capacitor on the left? This is where it all starts. @MadeForThat saw that too I'm sure, but he didn't want to rant in his post. So you get to read my rant:
<RANT>
Capacitors fail often. They are both very critical and yet represent the most common failure in power supplies. But not all capacitors are the same. Every device with electronics needs a PSU, yet not every device fails due to a PSU in the first 2 years of operation. This suggests that some that don't fail as often use capacitors that are somehow different, I would event go on a limb and say that they might be, oh, I don't know, of a higher quality. That way they last longer and work better. Let's take a look at what Neptune chose for their EB832:
Zhuohao capacitors? Zhuohao are not just low quality, they are the bottom of the bottom of the barrel capacitors. You can pretty much only source them directly from China. No reputable electronics supplier in the US carries them. Just google them to get some juicy details from the electronics community.
As it was previously mentioned, this entire PSU assembly, including capacitors and whatnot, can be purchased retail at ~$3-4. Shipped.
These particular PSU are really hobby grade items. If you are into Arduino tinkering, then it's a good option to prototype a toy project.
Neptune didn't even implement this module, they bought a truck load of them on alibaba. Because they are probably $1 or less each wholesale.
<END OF RANT>
Enough ranting. This poor EB832 is still hurting and needs to be fixed.
Of course, there is always an option to just replace the failed PSU with a working one. But the problem is that we would be replacing one subpar component with another component which is equally subpar. What if we fixed the component by replacing very low quality parts with something that is going to actually last past Neptune's meager 1 year warranty?
After all, the design of the PSU is very common and actually good enough for what it must do. It's the choice of parts to implement it that is questionable.
To verify the theory that this PSU is our problem, we will perform a quick diagnostic. The PSU is rated up to 1A current. It also has a red LED on the DC side to indicate that it's working properly. Just because this LED is on, doesn't mean that the unit is working to the specs. We'll apply a reasonable load, a small computer fan with 0.25A draw to the DC side to see if the PSU can power it up. In my experiment, the fan didn't spin and the red LED immediately turned off under the load. Capacitors are bad.
To fix this, we will remove all capacitors on board, regardless of their condition. We don't want that junk, as we can never be sure how much longer they will last. All caps removed and the area is clean and ready for the good stuff:
And speaking of the good stuff. For the fix, we have a healthy mix of brand new Panasonic, Rubycon and Nichicon capacitors. All top brands with longest life available:
These capacitors together probably cost more than the entire PSU unit they are going into.
They fit nice and clean into the original spots on the board:
Let's clip excess leads and the module is all back together and ready to go:
I tested it with the same 0.25A fan and now the fan spins and the red LED stays on. The PSU is now fixed.
Once it's back inside the EB832, the red LED stays on and the EB832 is happy again.
I wouldn't be surprised if the lowest components went in this. They have to make money on it somehow and they don't really have a subscription model yet other than reagents and food. I think the part that bugs me the most is that all of this "control" talk they have should allow me to add a virtual output with an API call on it, so it will turn on and off any other smart switch of better quality. I've never had an issue with Neptune, just their EB units and being forced into them. I have tons of their products though.
Not that I'm aware of. But here's the list of my relevant Neptune repair articles where most of the known quality/design issues are discussed:
Repairing EB832 AquaBus Power Issues or Why Head Unit Reboots Again
Some of my previous repairs: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/eb832-attempting-to-communicate-with-apex-bootloader-mode.811958/ https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/another-attempt-at-fixing-apex-eb832.804717/...
www.reef2reef.com
Apex FMM Module Causes Head Unit Reboot
Some of my previous repairs: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/repairing-eb832-aquabus-power-issues-or-why-head-unit-reboots-again.830684/ https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/another-attempt-at-fixing-apex-eb832.804717/...
www.reef2reef.com
EB832 Attempting to Communicate with Apex (Bootloader Mode)
Some of my previous repairs: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/radion-xr30-complete-no-light-repair.792711/ https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/radion-xr15-doesnt-power-on-due-to-corrosion-repair.809136/ https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/another-attempt-at-fixing-apex-eb832.804717/ And as always...
www.reef2reef.com
Another attempt at fixing Apex EB832
Some of my previous repairs: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/radion-xr30-complete-no-light-repair.792711/ https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/radion-lights-board-level-repair.774331/ https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ai-hydra-fan-connector-repair-significant-corrosion.793402/ First off, let me...
www.reef2reef.com
Quite a few more issues are discussed in my repair videos Neptune Apex Playlist
What I find surprising:I actually need to take a second one apart and see what happened to it actually. I speculate moisture got inside and shorted out the unit.
I wouldn't be surprised if the lowest components went in this. They have to make money on it somehow and they don't really have a subscription model yet other than reagents and food. I think the part that bugs me the most is that all of this "control" talk they have should allow me to add a virtual output with an API call on it, so it will turn on and off any other smart switch of better quality. I've never had an issue with Neptune, just their EB units and being forced into them. I have tons of their products though.
- Neptune never acknowledged any quality issues, although it is clear they were aware of at least some of them and attempted to address prior to the UL certification
- Given how widespread and damaging these issues are, there has not been a single class action to force Neptune to take the responsibility. Big names in the consumer electronics industry have had to deal with this over much less critical issues.
GillMeister
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I can easily forgive the fact that they started out with faulty boards. The way it works is the EE will spec out a board in the assembly and a buyer will source the most economical option. No one checks the quality of the individual parts on a circuit board. Quality of a purchased good is typically a given until proven otherwise. Only the big boys have resources to really spec down to the component level.
My expectation, however, would be that they've at least addressed the issue on new units being sold after they were made aware of the problem. Is that the case here? If not, then that would be disappointing.
Sleepydoc
Valuable Member
I've some pictures of newer EB832s in which the cheap 12V PSU was replaced with a Meanwell PSU. I can't definitively say that it's better but it's at least not a no-name brand. In general, there are 3 reasons to switch a component out - cost savings, availability and reliability. The old PSU is still available, so that's not it, leaving either cost or reliability. From what I've seen, the Meanwell units are more expensive so I have to assume they switched them for reliability.
Sleepydoc
Valuable Member
I don't find it surprising. How many companies will openly state "yeah, we used a cheap PSU in the first run but found out the caps were blowing so we upgraded it in the current version?" This is the kind of thing that's noted and diagnosed as they get units back and eventually they decide to upgrade to a more reliable unit but you never hear anything about component differences in updated board versions.
As far as class action suits go, I'm not surprised, either. Neptune is not that big of a company, even though they're big in the reefing industry. The payout would not end up being big enough for most class action lawyers to take an interest and ultimately, they're guilty of using a cheap component. How many other manufacturers out there do the same? It works as advertised and generally doesn't fail within the warranty period so it's hard to pin liability on them.
Sleepydoc
Valuable Member
Well, the replacement PSU lasted one year, way shorter than the original Neptune PSU. Apparently I went even cheaper than Neptune did!
Looks like it's time to order some capacitors... :/
gobble
Well-Known Member
_AV, thanks for this thread. I replaced my $2 power supply yesterday after my EB832 took a crap after a power outage. Next time I need to order anything from Digikey I'll order some better capacitors. That's great advice.
My neptune DDR quickly failed twice (second time AFTER their first repair), DOS pump failed (coming back now from their repair), and now my EB832. I knew better than to buy a COR or WAV.
Neptune, why is everything you make crap? The original controller was great and innovative. Now everything is just rushed, cobbled together crap. I wish I didn't have so much invested or I'd switch to Hydros.
My neptune DDR quickly failed twice (second time AFTER their first repair), DOS pump failed (coming back now from their repair), and now my EB832. I knew better than to buy a COR or WAV.
Neptune, why is everything you make crap? The original controller was great and innovative. Now everything is just rushed, cobbled together crap. I wish I didn't have so much invested or I'd switch to Hydros.
Is the older EB8 prone to these same problems? I have one in service that has been running a very long time, I'm curious if there is anything in it that I should be thinking about replacing.
Also, I have a Apex Classic that has some problems with the Network card. It struggles to load pages sometimes and my managed switch that it's running off of shows CRC errors on the port. Is there a common fix for that? I did contact neptune and they said it's not fixable by them, they did offer me $100 off the 2016 model which was nice though.
Whiskey
Also, I have a Apex Classic that has some problems with the Network card. It struggles to load pages sometimes and my managed switch that it's running off of shows CRC errors on the port. Is there a common fix for that? I did contact neptune and they said it's not fixable by them, they did offer me $100 off the 2016 model which was nice though.
Whiskey
EB8 is very different. Much better designed and built. Although it has it's weakness. They used solid state relays for 6 out of 8 outlets. Those relays tend to fail much sooner requiring a replacement. Which is difficult and awkward because EB8 disassembly is much harder than that of EB832.
Apex classic networking problem comes up periodically, but those are not a common repair anymore. I'd suspect either corrosion on contacts or issues with resistors between the connector and the controller.
Ha!! No question, that thing is hard to get apart. I'd much rather have a single outlet fail than all of them, if the solid state relays are the biggest issue I think I can live with that.
Interesting thought on the resisters! I did check the connector and board for any signs of water or corrosion and didn't find any, I didn't look at those parts though. I will take a closer look and test them to make sure they are performing close to their rated resistance.
Thank you!
Whiskey
Signed up on R2R just to say thank you @_AV for your contributions/analysis to this problem. I went ahead and ordered the extra capacitors after already ordering a replacement PSU on eBay.. I will replace the caps on the existing PSU and then replace the caps pre-emptively on the new PSU. I ordered from Mouser as Digikey did not have one of the caps in stock.
Thanks again! (P.S. the mods editing your post did you dirty.. you deserve better!).
Thanks again! (P.S. the mods editing your post did you dirty.. you deserve better!).
Thank you! Replacing the caps is the way to go. I've received multiple EB832 in for repair with the replaced 12v PSUs off of ebay/amazon. They fail the same way and as fast as the originals.
Capacitors arrived in 2 days and I was able to replace the caps last friday in 30 minutes or so.. Apex was back up and running shortly after that! My eBay PSU is still in transit and won't arrive for another week according to tracking.. There's no way I was going to wait that long!
plankton
Active Member
“So far I have also repaired about half a dozen newer EB832s with the meanwell PSU. While non of them had the 12v PSU failed, they all had a variation on the myriad of other common EB832 issues.”
I recently had a newer eb832 with the newer psu fail, sent it in to Neptune for trouble shooting as was told a component had to be replaced. But not which component and I haven’t received the fixed one back yet.
What other improvements can we make to make the eb832 stabilizer?
thanks
Scott
I recently had a newer eb832 with the newer psu fail, sent it in to Neptune for trouble shooting as was told a component had to be replaced. But not which component and I haven’t received the fixed one back yet.
What other improvements can we make to make the eb832 stabilizer?
thanks
Scott
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