Chrysophytes battle

[pboutin]

I'm currently battling what I thought was Dinoflagellates. @mcarroll has ID this for me as Chrysophytes. Here is a background on my tank and where I am now.

My tank build thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/4-years-old-and-just-getting-started.302988/

Total water volume 160 gal. I restarted it back in Nov? due to these pests. Apparently I never knew what I was battling as I have a fresh start and same issues.

I have Skimmer but stopped running it. I have a GFO/Carbon dual reactor also not running. After my restart I added a refugium to the system with a water vol of 40 gal (that's included in the 160) for a while it was growing green turf algae and cyano. The algae is browning out. I added Chaeto to balance it out. I have been running a bioreactor on this system since day 1 including the initial cycle (which took 3 months) with using Dr. Tim's One and Only. The reactor uses Dr. Tim's Active pearls. I don't have a lot of media in there. When I first added fish I experimented with normal feeding and overfeeding. I noticed that I never really got a lot of diatoms or algae. I started adding corals and checking my foundation elements and watching PH.

Average numbers
Alk 9.94
Cal 434.78
Mag 1080
Nitrate 0
Phosphate 0
PH 8.2 ~ 8.35

Other than the initial cycle I have never seen any Nitrate or Phosphate in this tank.

So far what I have done:

May 15th, I dosed my first dose of Phosphorous last night as the refugium lights came on. (reverse photoperiod) I turned off the supply flow to the refugium and waited for the water to drop before dosing. Since this is the tank with the macroalgae and chaeto this is the one I need to dose. After dosing I waited a good 10 min or so before turning the flow back on. I'll dose at night every night during treatment. I did a just under a full dose according to the Seachem Flourish Phosphorous bottle (I know this is for planted tanks but needed a starting dose) For my tank 160 gal total volume the recommended dose was 40 ml with the instructions for dosing at 5ml per 20 gal of water, I dosed 30 ml. All water samples for testing are pulled from the display tank in am.

Day 0
N03 N/A
P04 measured at 0
Dosed 30 ml of P2O5 into refugium

Day 1
N03 N/A
P04 measured at 0
No noticeable coral changes.
No noticeable difference in Dinos.
No noticeable algae growth or color change.
Removed some Red Slime mats from the refugium so it doesn't compete for the phosphate

I'll keep watching and feeding as normal. I did feed my Acans last night in the dark when their feeding tentacles were out. My corals as few as there are are all still happy except for the acro which is starving due to the super low nutrients. As I don't expect it to pop back I do hope to see it stop bleaching and hopefully see some polyp extension when I start dosing KN03.

May 16th, Yesterday I received in the mail my Nitrate pro test kit and my Seed Ranch order of KN03. I took a baseline reading for Nitrates and as suspected was at 0. I mixed a solution of KN03 of 12.34 grams of KN03 and filled the container to 500 ml with RODI water. This will give my tank of 160 gal 0.25 ppm of Nitrate with a dose of 10 ml. I'm no scientist so I got this calculation from https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php If you think this is off please let me know. I opted to stick to the ppm that the test kit tests at (not that this makes much of a difference but .25 is a good number to go with). My dosing is again in the refugium after flow turned off and water level stable.



For the curious, here are the compound breakdowns from the calculations:
Mix 12.34 grams of KNO3 to 500mL RODI. Adding 10mL of this mix to 160 gal aquarium to yield:
Element ppm/degree
NO3 0.25
N 0.06
K 0.16

Dose 40 ml of Flourish Phosphorus to 160 gal aquarium adds:
Element ppm/degree
K2O 0.13
K 0.11
P2O5 0.2
P 0.09
PO4 0.26

So considering that my initial dose was only 30 ml, that would have raised my PO4 to 0.2. Something is consuming it!

Side note: I decided for the sake of research I will not manually clean, scrub or blow off the Dinos from the rocks. This way I can easily observe rise or decline of visible dinos. Since my tank is so new and so clean the dinos are not brown but more translucent brown/yellow snot like. I have little to no dinos on the sand or in shaded areas of the tank. I have not observed as much dion growth in my refugium it seems to be most prevalent in my display tank. Also I'm not running my skimmer or GFO and Carbon. Nor am I cleaning my glass. I only have my bio-reactor running keeping my nutrients too low to measure.

Day 1 - continued
N03 measured at 0
Mixed 500 ml solution of KN03 to 10 ml = 0.25 ppm of N03 per 160 gal
Dosed 10 ml of KN03
Dosed 40 ml of P2O5
I observed some pods moving around in the algae were I couldn't find them before.

Day 2
N03 measured at 0
P04 measured at 0
Observations:
Dinos don't seem to be affected by the spike of Nitrates overnight (I'll take some pictures so I can compare better)
My corals looked a bit upset by the swing
My fish seem unaffected
The algae looks about the same (hard to tell if its greening up) I'll take some pictures so I can compare better

After my initial results it seems I need to test to see how fast the uptake is. Depending on that result I may have to dose more often throughout the day.

 

[pboutin]

Just a quick note on what the game plan was or is on this. My take has been nutrient deprived from day 1. There's lots of thought on Dinos outcompeting algae and even corals for nutrients as they can feed on bacteria if needed. I'm sure someone smarter than me can elaborate on this. So regardless of Dinos or "Chrysophytes" My Nitrates and Phosphates need to come up so I can stop losing corals. I lost my Acro and my Acans are in decline... To keep them as healthy as possible I have been broadcast feeding every night.

OK onto the tests

Day 2 - continued (5/16)
Dosed 20 ml KN03 - up from 10 ml
Dosed 40 ml of P2O5
Observed:
Some very large pods moving about the rockwork on the refugium
Some small patches of Chrysophytes are present on the rocks in the refugium
I took a picture of my Algae in my Refugium so I can compare color and growth


Day 3 (5/17)
N03 measured at 0
P04 measured at 0.08 - W00t!
Observations:
Coral health seems to remain the same I thought yesterday morning they seemed happier than last night or this morning
No noticeable changes in the Chrysophytes in the DT

Changes for day 3:
I cleaned the glass of the DT
Turned back on the skimmer
Changed out my filter pad (I don't run socks but a pad)

Given that the Phosphates came up after dosing I'll probably do half dose tonight to keep them right there. If they drop back tomorrow i'll go back to the full dose. I doubled the Nitrate dose and still no change I may take the biopellets offline (I hesitate on this as I don't want a huge spike of nitrates.) Otherwise I may just either continue the same dose or remove half of the media in the reactor. Anyone have an opinion on this?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Wow. Well your on the right track I think. I honestly would consider a canister filter with floss or micron filters(floss will work fine IMO) and just lower the biomass and reduce the the how fast they reproduce.. A diatom filter would not be out of the question.

Perhaps @mcarroll @reeferfoxx can chime in on the nutrient dosing.

(I hesitate on this as I don't want a huge spike of nitrates.)

I have to say as an owner of "high nutrient tanks" Ive never seen a "Spike". this year has been a roller coaster for my nutrints because of bryopsis. Ive also fed my tanks like bloody fool for NPS and mandarins. Yea it may have made my acros brown but that was it. Fwiw it is very possible the chryso could be actively feeding on the increased bacterial population from the biopellets in the water column like sponges and other marine life. .

 

[pboutin]

I honestly would consider a canister filter with floss or micron filters(floss will work fine IMO)

I hope to have one by the end of the weekend waiting on a fellow reef club members response on one.

just lower the biomass and reduce the the how fast they reproduce

Good point, I was thinking maybe reduce my media to half to start and see where it takes me beyond dosing KN03.

Fwiw it is very possible the chryso could be actively feeding on the increased bacterial population from the biopellets in the water column like sponges and other marine life.

I totally agree with this from what i've been reading. What else would keep them alive in a nutrient deprived system?

I don't plan to attempt to remove them from the rocks however until I get my nutrients in line. I don't want to risk spreading them. Hopefully by the time I get my hands on a canister filter I'll be there with the KN03 dosing.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Hi! I think you are in the right track with dosing no3. That will help releasee any locked po4. I noticed from an earlier post that your magnesium is really low. I think your corals would be happier if bumped up to 1300-1350.

So on to getting rid of chrysophytes. I think there is a benefit of combined efforts with dosing kno3, running GFO, and manual removal. In my 30 gallon i was able to rid chrysos in 3 days. First I cleaned out as much as possible with tooth brush and vacuum. I then added recommended amount for tank volumn of GFO for only 24 hours. I didn't start slow. This in turn dropped alkalinity, so monitoring is essential. Post GFO cleaning and water change, just make sure no3 is measurable as this will also release any other po4 locked away. For me it was that simple.
Good luck!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I don't plan to attempt to remove them from the rocks however until I get my nutrients in line. I don't want to risk spreading them. Hopefully by the time I get my hands on a canister filter I'll be there with the KN03 dosing.

Its seems like, youll be feeding them and the bacteria (further lowering nutrints) in this case though and they will propagate proportionally to the the amount of the organisms present.
So your increasing and decreasing at the same time.

Keep in mind on spreading, like bacteria its already in the water. everywhere. pretty much everyone has cyanobacteria, but we only see it where it creates large colonies.
Like common algaes, as soon as you remove the mass that is consuming nutrients, the nutrients naturally rise. it like taking GFO off line. Po4 is present bount to the rock but the gfo is stripping is from the water. remove the gfo and the actual amount sampled from the water is a better indicator of the amount truly bound to the rock.

Look on amazon, they have a canister for $60.(sun sun? and 9 other names are the same one) I have it, its surprisingly well built.

 

[pboutin]

I noticed from an earlier post that your magnesium is really low. I think your corals would be happier if bumped up to 1300-1350.

i'm already working on this... I ramped up my dosing today and will test again tomorrow

First I cleaned out as much as possible with tooth brush and vacuum. I then added recommended amount for tank volumn of GFO for only 24 hours. I didn't start slow. This in turn dropped alkalinity, so monitoring is essential. Post GFO cleaning and water change, just make sure no3 is measurable as this will also release any other po4 locked away.

What exactly reduced your alkalinity?

Thanks for your help

 

[pboutin]

Its seems like, youll be feeding them and the bacteria (further lowering nutrints) in this case though and they will propagate proportionally to the the amount of the organisms present.
So your increasing and decreasing at the same time.

Keep in mind on spreading, like bacteria its already in the water. everywhere. pretty much everyone has cyanobacteria, but we only see it where it creates large colonies.
Like common algaes, as soon as you remove the mass that is consuming nutrients, the nutrients naturally rise. it like taking GFO off line. Po4 is present bount to the rock but the gfo is stripping is from the water. remove the gfo and the actual amount sampled from the water is a better indicator of the amount truly bound to the rock.

Look on amazon, they have a canister for $60.(sun sun? and 9 other names are the same one) I have it, its surprisingly well built.

Good point on the spreading and nutrient uptake. However other than blowing them off the rocks and letting my skimmer pull them out is less than ideal. I don't run filter socks i use a filter mat in my sump so unfortunately i would not be able to catch everything that goes to the sump.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Good point on the spreading and nutrient uptake. However other than blowing them off the rocks and letting my skimmer pull them out is less than ideal. I don't run filter socks i use a filter mat in my sump so unfortunately i would not be able to catch everything that goes to the sump.

understood. That;s what the canister filter would be for.
When I deep clean the sump I turn off the return and scrub then leave it for the day till the water clears.

 

[pboutin]

What's the general rule of size of canister filter to water vol? and I was thinking of using it to both blow off the rocks and suck up the debris. I suppose after I do that i could run it in the sump for a while.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

What's the general rule of size of canister filter to water vol? and I was thinking of using it to both blow off the rocks and suck up the debris. I suppose after I do that i could run it in the sump for a while.

For this application I dont think it matters really. the bigger the faster it clears. The vol counts more if its fresh water as most of your bacteria is in the can and not the tank. We have live rock for bacteria.
I got two flexible hoses with rubber ends for $8 and used that but itll work stock just fine. Mostly I replaced the hoses as its easier to store and set up quickly.

I think this is the one I have, this is the cheapest, the same one literally has a dozen names. And again, im using thechep blue and white floss. the media is for bacteria.
https://www.amazon.com/SunSun-HW-30...id=1495043871&sr=1-7&keywords=canister+filter

 

[reeferfoxx]

What exactly reduced your alkalinity?

Chrysophytes cell wall is made up of silica. With recommended amounts of GFO you can eliminate upwards of 20mg of silica in 24 hours. Ths is substantial and will keep chrysos from reproducing. The affects of GFO are listed here by Dana Riddle.

 

[pboutin]

Well I learned a few things today! Thanks @reeferfoxx I may just go to my LFS to pick up a used canister filter later today to get the ball rolling faster. No need to buy new on something used infrequently!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Heck yea! If you can get a deal on a good one!

 

[mcarroll]

Chrysophytes cell wall is made up of silica. With recommended amounts of GFO you can eliminate upwards of 20mg of silica in 24 hours. Ths is substantial and will keep chrysos from reproducing. The affects of GFO are listed here by Dana Riddle.

I did use a small can of GFO on the 24 hours Plan (for Si removal) but based on how things reacted (or not) I can't say for sure whether it helped.

@pboutin GFO doesn't cost much though, the theory is right, and used properly it won't impact your PO4.

(It could impact your alk though, as mentioned....shouldn't be much based on the quantity you'll be using though, but keep an eye on alk when you add the GFO just in case. I'd wait until the rest of the chemistry is back in order....Mg included....before commencing GFO-based Si-removal.

 

[CoralManz]

I had something very similar growing all over my 20L a while back, just added GFO and presto it was gone.At the time my PO4 was really low,unreadable in fact.

 

[pboutin]

quick update: I turned on my 40 watt UV and my GFO, turned off my bioreactor, and picked up a canister/diatom filter I got used at LFS for $35 added a new Diatom paper filter to that. I decided to leave out the Diatom earth... seemed like too much trouble. I can certainly go get it if needed. I'll do a single dose tonight of the KN03 and P2O5 and do the cleaning in the AM. Hopefully my N03 will be up.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

quick update: I turned on my 40 watt UV and my GFO, turned off my bioreactor, and picked up a canister/diatom filter I got used at LFS for $35 added a new Diatom paper filter to that. I decided to leave out the Diatom earth... seemed like too much trouble. I can certainly go get it if needed. I'll do a single dose tonight of the KN03 and P2O5 and do the cleaning in the AM. Hopefully my N03 will be up.

Excellent. Good luck!

 

[mcarroll]

and my GFO

You got the <24 hrs treatment directions, right?

 

[pboutin]

You got the <24 hrs treatment directions, right?

Not sure what you mean here... Only run it for 24 hours?