Current Quarantine Protocol

[DrZoidburg]

I wouldn't cut treatment short like that cause of reasons mentioned^

 

[drstardust]

There is an alternative that works: 14 days of copper past the date of last symptoms, then remove the copper, treat with prazi for two weeks (should be doing that anyway) and then, if no protozoans break, redose the copper and pull the fish out of the tank after 48 hours, while still in the copper. Some public aquariums do this when they are under a deadline to get fish on exhibit. It basically knock 14 days off the quarantine time.

I was following until this last part, which does not seem fundamentally different than keeping fish in therapeutic level of copper for 14 days followed by transfer to a different, "sterile" tank for observation/prazi for ~2 weeks. I am not sure how much benefit a subsequent copper duration of only 48hrs would provide.

 

[Miami Reef]

I was following until this last part, which does not seem fundamentally different than keeping fish in therapeutic level of copper for 14 days followed by transfer to a different, "sterile" tank for observation/prazi for ~2 weeks. I am not sure how much benefit a subsequent copper duration of only 48hrs would provide.

I agree. 30 day copper is the old way of dosing copper. There’s no evidence of copper not working for 14 days with a transfer.

@Humblefish and @HotRocks both use 14 day copper. It works. Guaranteed.

I think @4FordFamily also does the 14 day period. But I need him to double check with me.

To the people checking in: we’re having a discussion about if dosing therapeutic copper for 14 days with a sterile tank transfer will work for ich/velvet treatment. I know the standard 30 day copper works, but this way exposes fish to less immunosuppressive medications, works in half the time, and has the same effectiveness as dosing for 30 days.

I believe doing a 14 day treatment is MORE effective than a 30 day.

Let me ask a question: how long do we wait for all the ich eggs to hatch and die for fallow for ich? 76 days? 6 weeks? 45 days? Exactly. So what makes you think after 30 days of copper will ensure all the ich tomonts have hatched and died?

Copper doesn’t kill ich eggs. This is probably one of the real reasons why a copper treatment could fail. If we were so positive that tomonts would all hatch by 30 days, explain why one can’t do a 30 day fallow for ich. Exactly.

 

[Miami Reef]

Read this: https://humble.fish/copper/

It explains how copper can be used for 14 or 30 days.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I was following until this last part, which does not seem fundamentally different than keeping fish in therapeutic level of copper for 14 days followed by transfer to a different, "sterile" tank for observation/prazi for ~2 weeks. I am not sure how much benefit a subsequent copper duration of only 48hrs would provide.

What that second “stinger” dose does is kills any theronts released by any leftover tomonts. I don’t do this myself, I always use copper for 30 days, I’m just saying some other public aquarists use this as part of their routine quarantine.
Jay

 

[KevinC]

What that second “stinger” dose does is kills any theronts released by any leftover tomonts. I don’t do this myself, I always use copper for 30 days, I’m just saying some other public aquarists use this as part of their routine quarantine.
Jay

Hi jay,

My recently Acquired clownfish have some light patch on skin. I suspect it to be brook. Normally when I do my QT, I do 30 days of copper power then 14 days of prazipro. As I don’t want to use formalin (cost like $40 shipped), would using API general cure work better than other medication? I sort of got this connotation that general cure is “weaker”

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Read this: https://humble.fish/copper/

It explains how copper can be used for 14 or 30 days.

There are some flaws in this information. The idea of raising copper over 6 days is bad advice and kills a lot of fish due to uncontrolled disease during that time. There is no reason to ramp up copper slowly.

All of the major players; Noga, Stoskopf, Kingsford, all say ionic copper for 21 days. Coppersafe is slower acting, thus 30 days is the proper course of treatment. I routinely hold fish in Coppersafe for 45+ days with no ill effects.

Copper for 14 days is too short, and this advice can cause people to lose fish, so I’m not going to suggest it in my quarantine protocol.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi jay,

My recently Acquired clownfish have some light patch on skin. I suspect it to be brook. Normally when I do my QT, I do 30 days of copper power then 14 days of prazipro. As I don’t want to use formalin (cost like $40 shipped), would using API general cure work better than other medication? I sort of got this connotation that general cure is “weaker”

Brook is tough treat without resorting to formalin. Copper won’t touch it. General Cure does not have a good track record for external protozoans. I don’t suppose you have access to chloroquine?
Jay

 

[KevinC]

Brook is tough treat without resorting to formalin. Copper won’t touch it. General Cure does not have a good track record for external protozoans. I don’t suppose you have access to chloroquine?
Jay

nope, but I have done my research on it. I will probably use formalin this time then!

This brings it to my next question, as copper doesn’t actually “covers” as much as chloroquine, would it be better to substitute future QT to 30 days of chloroquine phosphate instead of copper?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

nope, but I have done my research on it.

This brings it to my next question, as copper doesn’t actually “covers” as much as chloroquine, would it be better to substitute future QT to 30 days of chloroquine phosphate instead of copper?

Chloroquine actually has more toxic reactions in fish than copper does, I stopped using it about six years ago. Have you seen my chloroquine article? Google Hemdal Chloroquine.
Jay

 

[KevinC]

Chloroquine actually has more toxic reactions in fish than copper does, I stopped using it about six years ago. Have you seen my chloroquine article? Google Hemdal Chloroquine.
Jay

Oh I didn’t know that! Will read it right away. Thanks!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Oh I didn’t know that! Will read it right away. Thanks!

The article doesn’t really discuss the toxicity issues, that came later on. I found that wrasses and lion fish were having trouble with normal doses.
Jay

 

[Miami Reef]

There are some flaws in this information. The idea of raising copper over 6 days is bad advice and kills a lot of fish due to uncontrolled disease during that time. There is no reason to ramp up copper slowly.

All of the major players; Noga, Stoskopf, Kingsford, all say ionic copper for 21 days. Coppersafe is slower acting, thus 30 days is the proper course of treatment. I routinely hold fish in Coppersafe for 45+ days with no ill effects.

Copper for 14 days is too short, and this advice can cause people to lose fish, so I’m not going to suggest it in my quarantine protocol.

Jay

Well, if we are getting technical, Humblefish now recommends predosing copper at 2.0ppm and gradually raising to 2.5.

He still (as well as other quarantined vendors) use the 14 day treatment with a transfer into a sterile tank.

I won’t post in this thread anymore as this thread is about YOUR protocol.

 

[nldemo]

I have 2 separate tanks. 1 copper and 1 sterile.

what if you accidentally swoop up an egg in the net when you're transferring the fish to the sterile?

 

[Miami Reef]

what if you accidentally swoop up an egg in the net when you're transferring the fish to the sterile?

Then the egg will hatch and infect the fish in the sterile tank.

I have nothing against the 30 day treatment. It’s very effective and works! I just like the 14 day because it doesn’t expose fish longer than needed to medications. It’s also quicker to get into the observation. I quarantine with black mollies and observe for another 2 weeks in my observation tank.

As of right now, my fish are ich, brook free!

 

[hairyashell]

I have a question. If say I have my DT setup without any rocks or sand and I use it as a QT. After the QT is over, can I add in the sand and rock and let it be safe for inverts and coral?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have a question. If say I have my DT setup without any rocks or sand and I use it as a QT. After the QT is over, can I add in the sand and rock and let it be safe for inverts and coral?

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

The answer to this depends on what copper product you are using, and how many quarantine cycles you run before converting the tank to a DT. One time with coppersafe, and rinsing everything out with tap water after will be fine. Multiple copper sulfate treatments can cause copper to absorb into various silicones and plastics, and in theory, that could cause a problem later on.
Jay

 

[nldemo]

Day 35: Praziquantel Treatment #1

Any thoughts on API's general cure, which includes prazi and metro? Or is metro left out for a reason?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Any thoughts on API's general cure, which includes prazi and metro? Or is metro left out for a reason?

Metro has a lot of overlap with copper, and really isn’t all that effective unless dosed orally - but few people get the dose right (it is really complicated). I sometimes use dimetronidazole if I’ve confirmed internal protozoans.
Jay

 

[Brew12]

I agree. 30 day copper is the old way of dosing copper. There’s no evidence of copper not working for 14 days with a transfer.

@Humblefish and @HotRocks both use 14 day copper. It works. Guaranteed.

I think @4FordFamily also does the 14 day period. But I need him to double check with me.

To the people checking in: we’re having a discussion about if dosing therapeutic copper for 14 days with a sterile tank transfer will work for ich/velvet treatment. I know the standard 30 day copper works, but this way exposes fish to less immunosuppressive medications, works in half the time, and has the same effectiveness as dosing for 30 days.

I believe doing a 14 day treatment is MORE effective than a 30 day.

Let me ask a question: how long do we wait for all the ich eggs to hatch and die for fallow for ich? 76 days? 6 weeks? 45 days? Exactly. So what makes you think after 30 days of copper will ensure all the ich tomonts have hatched and died?

Copper doesn’t kill ich eggs. This is probably one of the real reasons why a copper treatment could fail. If we were so positive that tomonts would all hatch by 30 days, explain why one can’t do a 30 day fallow for ich. Exactly.

I guess you can blame a lot of this on me. I was the one who pushed the idea of shorter copper treatments with a transfer. I bombarded Bobby with literature convincing him it would work, and based on the scientific literature I had available, it made a great deal of sense and it seemed to be very effective.
I would still say that this is effective the majority of the time. As I see it, the flaw in my logic was assuming that a trophont will leave it's host within 7 days and then adding some margin. I have come to suspect that the copper treatment itself will slow trophont development and cause it to remain on the fish longer. The type of copper used, temperature of the system, and O2 levels in the system are also likely to play a role.

So, while the 14 day treatment with transfer is probably "good enough" for most strains of crypto and conditions the fish are kept in, it isn't going to be perfect. Jay is basing his recommendations on systems that have a much lower tolerance for risk than most hobbyists.

As for coppers impact on tomonts, I cannot find any studies that were done on the long term exposure of tomonts to copper treated water. I have seen it theorized that exposure to copper treated water for longer periods of time causes the resulting tomites to not be viable to reproduce. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any studies where this has been tested.

The only other research I've seen shows that tomonts which are formed on copper sheets or copper alloys will be killed by that copper. This may explain why ionic copper is more effective at shorter treatment times than chelated copper products. While that is speculative, it does show that tomonts can be impacted by copper.