Current Quarantine Protocol

[Jay Hemdal]

I guess you can blame a lot of this on me. I was the one who pushed the idea of shorter copper treatments with a transfer. I bombarded Bobby with literature convincing him it would work, and based on the scientific literature I had available, it made a great deal of sense and it seemed to be very effective.
I would still say that this is effective the majority of the time. As I see it, the flaw in my logic was assuming that a trophont will leave it's host within 7 days and then adding some margin. I have come to suspect that the copper treatment itself will slow trophont development and cause it to remain on the fish longer. The type of copper used, temperature of the system, and O2 levels in the system are also likely to play a role.

So, while the 14 day treatment with transfer is probably "good enough" for most strains of crypto and conditions the fish are kept in, it isn't going to be perfect. Jay is basing his recommendations on systems that have a much lower tolerance for risk than most hobbyists.

As for coppers impact on tomonts, I cannot find any studies that were done on the long term exposure of tomonts to copper treated water. I have seen it theorized that exposure to copper treated water for longer periods of time causes the resulting tomites to not be viable to reproduce. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any studies where this has been tested.

The only other research I've seen shows that tomonts which are formed on copper sheets or copper alloys will be killed by that copper. This may explain why ionic copper is more effective at shorter treatment times than chelated copper products. While that is speculative, it does show that tomonts can be impacted by copper.

I agree, 14 day copper treatments, especially with Cupramine, and if the infection rate is low, CAN work against ich. As I’ve said though, it really should be 14 days beyond the day the last trophont was seen. My tolerance is much lower,


Don’t forget - that copper sheet study was done with 2x daily water changes apparently done to reduce the toxicity to the fish. It is really tough to sus that out from the paper, almost like they were trying to hide that aspect.

Jay

 

[Brew12]

Don’t forget - that copper sheet study was done with 2x daily water changes apparently done to reduce the toxicity to the fish. It is really tough to sus that out from the paper, almost like they were trying to hide that aspect.

I didn't catch that, but it makes sense. Stuff like this is one reason why most of the research focused on aquaculture isn't necessarily as applicable to hobbyists as it may first appear.
The only thing I really took out of this study is that tomonts don't have the immunity to copper that we hobbyists often assume they do. Copper CAN impact them, but I still can't find anything that says how much copper for how long in a way that applies to hospital tanks.
The anecdotal evidence suggests that copper takes out tomonts in under 30 days using chelated copper and (maybe) 14 days using ionic copper. That still seems to be the best information we have to go on.

 

[Miami Reef]

I didn't catch that, but it makes sense. Stuff like this is one reason why most of the research focused on aquaculture isn't necessarily as applicable to hobbyists as it may first appear.
The only thing I really took out of this study is that tomonts don't have the immunity to copper that we hobbyists often assume they do. Copper CAN impact them, but I still can't find anything that says how much copper for how long in a way that applies to hospital tanks.
The anecdotal evidence suggests that copper takes out tomonts in under 30 days using chelated copper and (maybe) 14 days using ionic copper. That still seems to be the best information we have to go on.

Thank you for this information @Brew12

So what quarantine method would you use? (ps. I know you don’t quarantine anymore).

I don’t like ionic copper because a lot of fish don’t tolerate it well. Plus it has a very tight therapeutic range so evaporation will make it more toxic, and absorption (from fish, media, etc) will make it not effective.

Removing copper from the same tank worries me. I would STILL use a transfer even if I had my copper running for 30 days.

How can I keep my tank fallow for 76 days to ensure all tomonts are gone, but then assume all tomonts are gone after 30 days in my QT??? Very contradictory.

And then you proceed to state that copper might not even sterilize the eggs after having therapeutic for 30 days. That was the last saving grace to have copper lowered in same tank after 30 days.

If I knew all tomonts were hatched and dead after 30 days my fallow would have completed almost 2 months ago!

Edit: saying anecdotal evidence does not sound as scientific evidence. I can also say that anecdotally copper power for 14 days + transfer works to eradicate ich, because it worked for me. Plus Humblefish’s vendors (who use the 14 day+ transfer + observation for 2 weeks) say it works for them.

Do we know copper will kill tomonts after 30 days? No.

 

[Miami Reef]

My closing statement: There is no quarantine method that is 100% effective 100% of the time. Life is too messy for that. Having redundancies in your QT increases the chances of succeeding. One example is observing the fish for 2-4 weeks.

 

[BoneDoc]

Thanks for the insight Jay.
Humble fish was suggesting 1.75 ppm for copper with copper power. If I have a Hanna checker, is this a viable option

 

[Miami Reef]

Thanks for the insight Jay.
Humble fish was suggesting 1.75 ppm for copper with copper power. If I have a Hanna checker, is this a viable option

You need 2.5ppm. 1.75ppm is the older method but there is copper resistant velvet.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for the insight Jay.
Humble fish was suggesting 1.75 ppm for copper with copper power. If I have a Hanna checker, is this a viable option

That is too low. The bottle instructions tests out at 2.1 ppm with about 0.5 ppm ammonia.

Jay

 

[Brew12]

So what quarantine method would you use? (ps. I know you don’t quarantine anymore).

I don’t like ionic copper because a lot of fish don’t tolerate it well. Plus it has a very tight therapeutic range so evaporation will make it more toxic, and absorption (from fish, media, etc) will make it not effective.

If I ever go back to doing prophylactic QT I would follow what Jay lays out fairly closely. If I were only doing a small fish or two, I'd probably transfer it to a clean QT on a convenient day near day 30 in Coppersafe. If I didn't have a 2nd properly sized QT to transfer them into, I'd follow his recommendations very closely. The Hanna checker really is a game changer when it comes to my trusting longer treatments in copper.

How can I keep my tank fallow for 76 days to ensure all tomonts are gone, but then assume all tomonts are gone after 30 days in my QT??? Very contradictory.

And then you proceed to state that copper might not even sterilize the eggs after having therapeutic for 30 days. That was the last saving grace to have copper lowered in same tank after 30 days.

I guess that is one way of looking at it. Unfortunately, we are missing 2 critical studies. To the best of my knowledge there has never been a study on how long a trophont will remain in a fish while in the presence of therapeutic levels of copper and we don't know how long that level of copper would take to remove tomonts as a threat.

Edit: saying anecdotal evidence does not sound as scientific evidence. I can also say that anecdotally copper power for 14 days + transfer works to eradicate ich, because it worked for me. Plus Humblefish’s vendors (who use the 14 day+ transfer + observation for 2 weeks) say it works for them.

Unfortunately, we don't have scientific evidence to rely on. It's not ideal, but it doesn't exist. Humblefish didn't stop using 30 days in copper because it wasn't effective. He successfully put thousands of fish through that without a transfer. I'm sure Jay has put at least thousands through his process. The bottom line is that it works.

For what I came up with as far as 14 days with a transfer? It seems to work. It will probably work much more often than not. Is it as proven as what Jay is recommending? Not even close. If you look at what I wrote back in 2017 I put a disclaimer in the first paragraph.

Beginners Guide to Acclimation and Quarantine

Your beautiful new display tank is up and ready for fish. You have come up with your stocking list and you are finally ready to buy your first fish but you aren’t confident on how to proceed. I am going to walk you through a basic acclimation and...

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[Miami Reef]

@Brew12

So you say that copper for 30 days is more effective than copper for 14 days + transfer?

I honestly thought it was the other way because of the tomonts that can hatch.

I know that the 30 days QT works. I never proposed that it didn’t. All I’m saying is that the 14 day treatment does work too.

I don’t have a problem with 30 days. It’s just that I don’t like keeping fish in medications any longer than I need. I also like the shorter turnover with fish.

I need to do more thinking and research. I’m very happy with my current setup and it’s working for me.

 

[Brew12]

@Brew12

So you say that copper for 30 days is more effective than copper for 14 days + transfer?

I honestly thought it was the other way because of the tomonts that can hatch.

I know that the 30 days QT works. I never proposed that it didn’t. All I’m saying is that the 14 day treatment does work too.

I don’t have a problem with 30 days. It’s just that I don’t like keeping fish in medications any longer than I need. I also like the shorter turnover with fish.

I need to do more thinking and research. I’m very happy with my current setup and it’s working for me.

Obviously, I'm against keeping fish in med's longer than needed too. That is the reason I made the big push for the shorter treatment and trust me, I got A LOT of negative feedback when I wrote that article. Humblefish was against getting it published at the time.
You have two competing risks with the 14 or 30 day concepts.
The 30 day option has you trusting all of the tomonts have hatched or been rendered harmless by the copper prior to reducing the concentration.
The 14 day with transfer requires you to trust that all the trophonts have dropped off the fish prior to the transfer.
We don't have scientific data that reliably has tested either of them, so that leaves us relying on anecdotal evidence. I know some people view that as a dirty word, but there really is a place for it as long as it is views with a discerning and skeptical eye.
I've seen people fail with both options and the reasons they have failed is unclear. We can only speculate. The 30 day treatment has been used significantly longer with many more successful attempts than the 14 day concept.
If someone want to treat fish but isn't patient, then the 14 day plus transfer is better than nothing and I feel still has a high chance of success. The 30 day with copper removal is probably better but takes more time. 30 days with a transfer would be an improvement on either of them but it takes time and more work.

 

[Miami Reef]

Obviously, I'm against keeping fish in med's longer than needed too. That is the reason I made the big push for the shorter treatment and trust me, I got A LOT of negative feedback when I wrote that article. Humblefish was against getting it published at the time.
You have two competing risks with the 14 or 30 day concepts.
The 30 day option has you trusting all of the tomonts have hatched or been rendered harmless by the copper prior to reducing the concentration.
The 14 day with transfer requires you to trust that all the trophonts have dropped off the fish prior to the transfer.
We don't have scientific data that reliably has tested either of them, so that leaves us relying on anecdotal evidence. I know some people view that as a dirty word, but there really is a place for it as long as it is views with a discerning and skeptical eye.
I've seen people fail with both options and the reasons they have failed is unclear. We can only speculate. The 30 day treatment has been used significantly longer with many more successful attempts than the 14 day concept.
If someone want to treat fish but isn't patient, then the 14 day plus transfer is better than nothing and I feel still has a high chance of success. The 30 day with copper removal is probably better but takes more time. 30 days with a transfer would be an improvement on either of them but it takes time and more work.

I 100% agree with this post!

 

[Brew12]

I 100% agree with this post!

Shhh!!!! You are going to get us in trouble!!! This is still the internet, at least call me some demeaning name or something!
Ban coming in 3...2...1....;Sorry

 

[brandon429]

Jay and Brew

question: what’s the common approach in quarantine setups when dosed meds kill the biofilter in qt

are you guys re dosing bottle bac or adding back in ready media? Am aware dosing of Prime is the standard offset but that thread in the chem forum measuring prime on ammonia with a seneye shows it to have no effect on nh3, how are medicated quarantine systems handling fish waste and feed was wondering

 

[Miami Reef]

Jay and Brew

question: what’s the common approach in quarantine setups when dosed meds kill the biofilter in qt

are you guys re dosing bottle bac or adding back in ready media? Am aware dosing of Prime is the standard offset but that thread in the chem forum measuring prime on ammonia with a seneye shows it to have no effect on nh3, how are medicated quarantine systems handling fish waste and feed was wondering

I know you didn’t tag me, but I do have information on this topic.

Copper does kill some nitrifying bacteria, but not enough to cause a spike in ammonia. You should dose 2ppm ammonia and ensure it goes down to 0ppm within 24 hours before adding copper.

Adding bacteria to therapeutic copper is a waste of bacteria. All will get killed as they hit the water.

For antibiotics like furan2 which harm biofilter: water changes, light bioload, and light feeding is what you’d need to manage ammonia.

 

[brandon429]

Excellent!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay and Brew

question: what’s the common approach in quarantine setups when dosed meds kill the biofilter in qt

are you guys re dosing bottle bac or adding back in ready media? Am aware dosing of Prime is the standard offset but that thread in the chem forum measuring prime on ammonia with a seneye shows it to have no effect on nh3, how are medicated quarantine systems handling fish waste and feed was wondering

I’ve only had issues with certain antibiotics and sometimes chloroquine. In the case of chloroquine it seems more that it kills off enough of the microbiome to temporarily overwhelm the biofilter.
You should avoid using ammonia removers with cupramine, and possibly other copper products as well. These don’t actually remove ammonia, just chemically change it’s firm, thus some testing methods still show the presence of ammonia after use.
If it is do to the antibiotic being used, I typically just do water changes when I redose the antibiotic.
I don’t rely on bacteria starters - some don’t work well and all are expensive. I keep sponge filters operating in fish only system to use instead.
Jay

 

[brandon429]

Thank you both we can use this info in our qt cycle challenges thanks tons

 

[Brew12]

Jay and Brew

question: what’s the common approach in quarantine setups when dosed meds kill the biofilter in qt

are you guys re dosing bottle bac or adding back in ready media? Am aware dosing of Prime is the standard offset but that thread in the chem forum measuring prime on ammonia with a seneye shows it to have no effect on nh3, how are medicated quarantine systems handling fish waste and feed was wondering

I've never had meds make a noticeable impact on the biofilter. I do agree with @Miami Reef though that it isn't worth trying to add any bottled bacteria to a tank with copper in the water.

I never use Prime in a medicated tank. I wasn't aware my LFS had Coppersafe in their water and I added Prime for drip acclimating them. Needless to say they didn't make it. Now I don't trust Prime with how it may interact with any medications.

I have used macro algae to control ammonia in a tank with copper treatment. It will absorb some copper so regular testing is needed, but it isn't enough to make it unmanageable.

 

[Dominic_Dom]

Jay and Brew

questions: Is there any list of copper sensitive fish for example pygmy angelfish? How to deal with these kind of fish while handling prophylactic treatment with Copperpower?

What if, ICH is observed in the DP, is putting all the fish into the QT and undergo 30 days copper treatment and leave the DT fishless for 76 days is the best measure to get rid of ICH? I understand the life cycle of ICH and I observed ICH once in my DT, however, there is no symptoms (white spot) for all 10 of my fish, only two scratches on the side of the tank, none of them lose their appetite. Do I still have to do what I mentioned above?

Thx!!!

 

[Miami Reef]

Jay and Brew

questions: Is there any list of copper sensitive fish for example pygmy angelfish? How to deal with these kind of fish while handling prophylactic treatment with Copperpower?

What if, ICH is observed in the DP, is putting all the fish into the QT and undergo 30 days copper treatment and leave the DT fishless for 76 days is the best measure to get rid of ICH? I understand the life cycle of ICH and I observed ICH once in my DT, however, there is no symptoms (white spot) for all 10 of my fish, only two scratches on the side of the tank, none of them lose their appetite. Do I still have to do what I mentioned above?

Thx!!!

Fish and Treatment Guidelines (with chart)

Fish and Treatment Guidelines (with chart) The following chart is a quick reference guide on what QT protocol should be used according to which type of fish you are running through QT. It will give you an idea of which methods are generally safest with certain species but is not meant to be...

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