Cycling Confusion

[Quietman]

I don't think it matters all that much on when you add what. I started with just live sand (which probably wasn't because I let it dry out), then added Dr Tim's once ammonia started dropping and then added some MB7 in the hopes of increasing "biodiversity". I really overthought the cycling process and I enjoyed doing it. Sampled all the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and charted my results.

You know what? I could've added fish at two weeks regardless. Ammonia was 0. I didn't learn that nitrites weren't toxic until afterwards and I think biodiversity is less important and mostly marketing when it comes to bacteria supporting the nitrogen cycle.

But it's one of the few times when we can actually see a predictable result from our actions. In the two years since and all the issues I've dealt with, cycling seems like a cause and effect wonderland of certainty.

 

[brandon429]

I’d also add the misinformation starts with any article we can find on cycling, our training is written now by retailers who are there to shore up a cycle by selling us something.

(I don’t expect any agreement w that claim)

but show me a cycling article that discusses testing misread impacts on measure. Every cycling article implies ability to test ammonia among readers as totally accurate and fully consistent.


show me a cycling article that separates total skip cycles (live rocks moved from pet store to home always skip the cycle and never require delay) from curing cycles/ 10 days KPI aquatics cured out wait cycles and from dry rock cycles which get feed, bottle bac and a known wait time. All cycling articles ascribe dry rock practices for all substrates, fact. That means we are buying bac, always, then re buying it for nitrite compliance issues a month later.

show a cycling article that says nitrite has no bearing on any cycle whatsoever, no degree of nitrite will be a concern for a reef tank cycler. Retail umps line up ways cycles stall, so we click from them. Owning a nitrite kit is not required for any aspect of reefing. It’s the single most unneeded to know param in all of reefing. Nitrite specifically cannot stall a cycle, it cannot occur in a display reef. No cycling article says that, they say opposite so we remain buyers.


also, find a cycling article that discusses the timeframe from an unassisted cycle (to the horror of retailers and retail cycle umpires, a reef cycle can be had in sixty days or less by adding water to rocks, and sand if wanted, nothing else)

by omitting facts in cycling training we never stood a chance until free forums like rtr allowed for the challenge, discoveries


reefcentral banned anyone posting cycling heresy long about ‘12.
I still read reefcentral weekly looking for new discoveries, links to trending in the aquarium hobby… it’s usually quite a search.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Here’s the thing. If you put fish in the tank and they die from ammonia you will then be told that they died from not being quarantined properly. Just wait until the ammonia goes away. Get another test kit to verify at the least.

 

[brandon429]

fish disease doesnt cloud the water, smell bad, and wipe out all the motile inverts, but free ammonia will.

factoring ammonia test kit readings in the context of the actual tank, factoring the actual label on the bottle bac for completion date, should accompany each evaluation then we're using consistent means that would allow aquarists to complete cycles by a known/desired completion date, such as a marine aquarium convention.



those are excellent examples of folks who never, ever hesitate or miss a given friday ready date. helps to keep the big picture in mind/options

in forum cycles, there is NEVER a clear start date its merely wait open ended. that's buyers training, agreed still quarantine.

*it seems like I think any tank with water is instantly ready to run I know lol

not the case

its that these question threads are always meeting more than one marker for being ready, # of days underwater compared to the ammonia line on a cycling chart is a big one (about ten days avg we can see on charts)

To be quicker than that, I like to see fritz or biospira or Dr. Tim's bac. those test on seneye to work instantly, same day, making fish-in cycles not an issue of harm or even irritation, but disease vectors.

 

[brandon429]

HomeBrood that's also a legit concern for the hobby that nobody has answered yet, is it possible to have burning/irritating levels of ammonia that harm fish and inverts but yet leave the water clear and non smelly day to day, plus feed added for the animals

meaning how can the system control ammonia well enough to prevent graying when we're dosing feed into a not ready system, but leave just a bare tail end of ammonia leftover, unused, to harm the fish

*old cycling rules says this transition from not cycled to cycled was a long drawn out event, and non digital tests agree.


but digital tests show the transition time as fast, in Dr. Reef's bottle bac thread he was able to dose bottle bac then change 100% of the water 24 hours later and a few brands still adhered to the rocks enough to make a completed cycle, in one day or less using none of the floating bac in the water as the workhorse.
a true cycle is ready when total water changes can't unstick it.



all non digital tests agree with you, burning of fish while other aspects of ammonia are controlled happens.


all digital tests agree it does not happen, that's where our hobby stands on simply knowing about the most poisonous compound our tanks make. Even the master chemists won't be pinpointed down to a claim...its a very changing science. we're in the wild west of free ammonia discoveries, nice time to be reefing.

nobody even really agrees what levels of nh3 a fully cycled and matured reef runs at, so the chances of us discerning that for new tanks is even lower. in my opinion this is why contextual analysis beats titration testing.

I can't find a single example of a dead fish cycle anyway, post the ones you felt were disease. Id accept any loose offer as long as its a thread I can read for details and clues.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

HomeBrood that's also a legit concern for the hobby that nobody has answered yet, is it possible to have burning/irritating levels of ammonia that harm fish and inverts but yet leave the water clear and non smelly day to day, plus feed added for the animals

meaning how can the system control ammonia well enough to prevent graying when we're dosing feed into a not ready system, but leave just a bare tail end of ammonia leftover, unused, to harm the fish

*old cycling rules says this transition from not cycled to cycled was a long drawn out event, and non digital tests agree.


but digital tests show the transition time as fast, in Dr. Reef's bottle bac thread he was able to dose bottle bac then change 100% of the water 24 hours later and a few brands still adhered to the rocks enough to make a completed cycle, in one day or less using none of the floating bac in the water as the workhorse.
a true cycle is ready when total water changes can't unstick it.



all non digital tests agree with you, burning of fish while other aspects of ammonia are controlled happens.


all digital tests agree it does not happen, that's where our hobby stands on simply knowing about the most poisonous compound our tanks make. Even the master chemists won't be pinpointed down to a claim...its a very changing science. we're in the wild west of free ammonia discoveries, nice time to be reefing.

nobody even really agrees what levels of nh3 a fully cycled and matured reef runs at, so the chances of us discerning that for new tanks is even lower. in my opinion this is why contextual analysis beats titration testing.

I can't find a single example of a dead fish cycle anyway, post the ones you felt were disease. Id accept any loose offer as long as its a thread I can read for details and clues.

I can tell you with 13 aquariums, 3 of which are saltwater none of them show ammonia on an api test. So why take the chance of putting fish in ammonia when the test will eventually read zero. I haven’t had a tank that doesn’t eventually read zero. Setting up a tank at a show for 2 or 3 days is very different from setting up a box of water that you will fill with organics for the rest of its life. It’s not worth the risk when you can just wait until it’s zero. Just my opinion. How many aquariums have you personally cycled Brandon?

 

[brandon429]

can you post any links for the quick death of fish we can claim to be diseased

I started another thread in the main forum asking for a single example from the entire internet, any era, of a failed cycle. if you'll post the uronema wipeouts here Ill relay em there

find a fish death fast enough we can legit wonder if it was free ammonia. we can check it against the context markers for the setup per the post, this is why I like threads as pattern proofing. I really agree there is a risk in starting tanks too soon, if we can just get one example that'll do. there's a million cycles online, surely one is bad and we can find it

 

[lapin]

I'm very new to reefing, this is my first ever salt water tank... It has been up and running for around 4 weeks now and has been dosed with microbacter quikcycle and a few doses of microbacter start xlm... My ammonia and nitrite levels have been a bit all over the place but have been holding steady for the last few days at 1-2ppm amonia and 0.5-1ppm nitrite.... My nitrate levels are through the roof at 40ppm so I know there is definitely bacteria in there doing their job... That being said, there is so much variation in the advice online as to what to do next.... Some advice saying no fish until ammonia and nitrite are 0, some saying to do a 40% water change to lower nitrate and add 1 or 2 hardy fish such as clowns at this point to give a source of ammonia so the cycle continues (I am cycling with just dry rock at the moment).... What do I do here? What are my next moves? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

I will bet you never expected such a response.
*-*

 

[brandon429]

scene from tommy boy/burning car model on the plant manager's desk