Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[taricha]

Bump

I threw in the towel with my dino battle. purchased a new tank, new sump, new sand and new rock.
Is there anything I can do to minimize dinos in the new tank?
Anyway to try to clean the corals to minimize dino transfer?

Sometimes if you just want to see what's already been said in this 6000+ post thread, you can search a term restrict the search to just this thread and put in the names of some frequent posters. For instance - post #3965 and #3966
from Beardo and myself talk about a couple of dips and the limitations to them.
Think of these as washing your hands with soap. Not 100% - not even close, but still worth doing.

edit: and these posts too from beardo and myself #1276 and #1315

 

[dwest]

Sometimes if you just want to see what's already been said in this 6000+ post thread, you can search a term restrict the search to just this thread and put in the names of some frequent posters. For instance - post #3965 and #3966
from Beardo and myself talk about a couple of dips and the limitations to them.
Think of these as washing your hands with soap. Not 100% - not even close, but still worth doing.

edit: and these posts too from beardo and myself #1276 and #1315

Some goodies in there for sure.

Hey @Beardo, are you still running UV from your sump to DT? Any amphidinium rearing up?

 

[OpenOcean33]

So dinos are showing again. Under the microscope more and more are showing up. The patches on the sand are just brown, not stringy. The dinos are only on the sand however under the microscope i only see what i believe to be coolia and and one single ampidium dino running around. However, since they are only located on the sand i will start dosing silicates tonight and see what happens. Parameters have been stable with po4- .12 N. 6ppm salinity 1.025 calcium 410 and alk was alittle low tonight at 9.4. So i dosed alk. So tonight will be dosing silicates and keep you guys updated. Oh and any comment and suggestions are very much appreciated THANK YOU.

 

[OpenOcean33]

So dinos are showing again. Under the microscope more and more are showing up. The patches on the sand are just brown, not stringy. The dinos are only on the sand however under the microscope i only see what i believe to be coolia and and one single ampidium dino running around. However, since they are only located on the sand i will start dosing silicates tonight and see what happens. Parameters have been stable with po4- .12 N. 6ppm salinity 1.025 calcium 410 and alk was alittle low tonight at 9.4. So i dosed alk. So tonight will be dosing silicates and keep you guys updated. Oh and any comment and suggestions are very much appreciated THANK YOU.

Oh also im ready @taricha dosing recomendations for silicates and comparing it to the silicate bottle recomentdations. I have a 65 gallons of water in my tank minus 5 for rock and sand i think. The bottle recomends to dose 1 drop per 20 gallons to begin with. So i am going to start high with 5 drops since Im aiming to grow silicates and not feed sponges. I am going to aim a little lower than 1:1 ratio since my N is 6 i will round down to 5 and 1.2 silicates, same as taricha. However, math shows i should be adding 325 drops per day to get to 1ppm. SO i will start at 5 and increase 10% everyday untill the amazing bloom is here ! any thoughts and comment are appretiated.

 

[Beardo]

Some goodies in there for sure.

Hey @Beardo, are you still running UV from your sump to DT? Any amphidinium rearing up?

Funny you should mention this as I was going to provide an update...longish post so bear with me.
Ostis, Coolia and Prorocentrum cleared out pretty quickly back in Sept/Oct of 2017 after installing the UV. The large cell and small cell amphidinium along with other unidentified dino took awhile longer but slowly faded over the next month or so.
Started restocking corals and all was good, never another sign of dinos. UV stayed in service. The last livestock of any kind was added in late April 2018 just before I found out I was being tranferred and had to move.
Tank was taken down mid August, still no sign of dinos.
Move was from SF Bay area to San Diego. All livestock was moved to SD and placed in 2 large stock tanks and stayed there until end of December. I was delayed setting the tank back up due to the movers breaking the tank. During the time in the stock tanks, never a sign of dinos, though I did have massive cyano outbreak in one of the stock tanks. Didn't have any nutrient export except water changes. Also during the stay in the stock tanks I lost most of my fish due to an extended power outage.
About 2 -3 weeks after setting the tank back up, started noticing a few strings and confirmed a small outbreak of Osti and Coolia. When I checked nutrients I found my nitrates were bottomed out and phosphates were at 0.13. Im sure the low nitrates were due to the very low livestock levels.
It had been about a year of runtime on my UV bulbs so replaced them. Dosed nitates to bring them up to about 5ppm which then dropped phosphates to zero. Started dosing phophates and shortly there after small cell amphidinium showed up and increased in population rapidly.
I was surprised that the Ostis and Coolia didn't disappear as quicly as they did back in 2017 after originally installing the UV. I believe it may have been because of lower flow in the tank not driving them as easily into the water column at night. I had flow lower because I had added a sand bed back when I set the tank back up. I have recently upped the flow to remedy that. Other steps are similar to what I did in the past: I siphoned as much as possible out of the tank, installed 5 micron filter socks, changing as often as needed for physical removal, 2 day lights out period to get dinos in the water column along with frequent blasting of rocks and substrate with a small powerhead to help drive them into the water column so the UV can do it's job. That is where I stand now. I am not overly concerned, I know they can be beat back into submission.

This is a good reminder that dinos can lay dormant for a long time only to pop back up when conditions are just right. I know many have only run UV for relatively short periods, but this has confirmed to me that when dealing with dinos, it is better to keep it running. I'm sure my recent outbreak would have been worse if my UV wasn't running.

The osti and coolia showing back up didn't really shock me. We know they can encyst for long periods. The amphidinium showing up did catch me off guard though.

 

[dwest]

Funny you should mention this as I was going to provide an update...longish post so bear with me.
Ostis, Coolia and Prorocentrum cleared out pretty quickly back in Sept/Oct of 2017 after installing the UV. The large cell and small cell amphidinium along with other unidentified dino took awhile longer but slowly faded over the next month or so.
Started restocking corals and all was good, never another sign of dinos. UV stayed in service. The last livestock of any kind was added in late April 2018 just before I found out I was being tranferred and had to move.
Tank was taken down mid August, still no sign of dinos.
Move was from SF Bay area to San Diego. All livestock was moved to SD and placed in 2 large stock tanks and stayed there until end of December. I was delayed setting the tank back up due to the movers breaking the tank. During the time in the stock tanks, never a sign of dinos, though I did have massive cyano outbreak in one of the stock tanks. Didn't have any nutrient export except water changes. Also during the stay in the stock tanks I lost most of my fish due to an extended power outage.
About 2 -3 weeks after setting the tank back up, started noticing a few strings and confirmed a small outbreak of Osti and Coolia. When I checked nutrients I found my nitrates were bottomed out and phosphates were at 0.13. Im sure the low nitrates were due to the very low livestock levels.
It had been about a year of runtime on my UV bulbs so replaced them. Dosed nitates to bring them up to about 5ppm which then dropped phosphates to zero. Started dosing phophates and shortly there after small cell amphidinium showed up and increased in population rapidly.
I was surprised that the Ostis and Coolia didn't disappear as quicly as they did back in 2017 after originally installing the UV. I believe it may have been because of lower flow in the tank not driving them as easily into the water column at night. I had flow lower because I had added a sand bed back when I set the tank back up. I have recently upped the flow to remedy that. Other steps are similar to what I did in the past: I siphoned as much as possible out of the tank, installed 5 micron filter socks, changing as often as needed for physical removal, 2 day lights out period to get dinos in the water column along with frequent blasting of rocks and substrate with a small powerhead to help drive them into the water column so the UV can do it's job. That is where I stand now. I am not overly concerned, I know they can be beat back into submission.

This is a good reminder that dinos can lay dormant for a long time only to pop back up when conditions are just right. I know many have only run UV for relatively short periods, but this has confirmed to me that when dealing with dinos, it is better to keep it running. I'm sure my recent outbreak would have been worse if my UV wasn't running.

The osti and coolia showing back up didn't really shock me. We know they can encyst for long periods. The amphidinium showing up did catch me off guard though.

Thanks for the details. Amazing story. I was wondering if I could ever remove my UV. I think you answered that.

Did your old tank have sand?

 

[dwest]

Oh also im ready @taricha dosing recomendations for silicates and comparing it to the silicate bottle recomentdations. I have a 65 gallons of water in my tank minus 5 for rock and sand i think. The bottle recomends to dose 1 drop per 20 gallons to begin with. So i am going to start high with 5 drops since Im aiming to grow silicates and not feed sponges. I am going to aim a little lower than 1:1 ratio since my N is 6 i will round down to 5 and 1.2 silicates, same as taricha. However, math shows i should be adding 325 drops per day to get to 1ppm. SO i will start at 5 and increase 10% everyday untill the amazing bloom is here ! any thoughts and comment are appretiated.

I just have a couple thoughts. First of all, go with what taricha says, he has much more experience than me with this type of dosing.

I dosed sponge excel for about 6 weeks, just before Christmas last year. What I found was that the instructions on the bottle encouraged the growth of lots of diatoms. I did not measure the silicates in my tank with any sort of tester. I never went above 1 drop per 20 gallons. The second thing is that my phosphates dropped like a rock and I had to dose them also to keep them measurable.

Keep us informed. Good luck.

 

[Beardo]

Thanks for the details. Amazing story. I was wondering if I could ever remove my UV. I think you answered that.

Did your old tank have sand?

It started out with sand but I had removed it during the "dino wars". Curious to see if I have success with the sandbed in place.

 

[dwest]

It started out with sand but I had removed it during the "dino wars". Curious to see if I have success with the sandbed in place.

Me too! I removed mine. Would love to have it back. Way too scared to try myself at this point. Keep us updated. Thanks.

 

[Jason mack]

For Large Cell Amphidinium only, anyone wanting to try dosing Silica to have diatoms outcompete the dinos as outlined in this paper previously discussed.

Brightwell SpongeXcel silicate source
Salifert Si test kit

I'm going to presume a 10 gal tank with 10ppm No3 = 2.25 ppm N

"1 drop per gallon of water increases ionic silica concentration by ~0.20 ppm."
Test (guessing zero Si)
day 1&2 - 5 drops (.20ppm cumulative Si)
Test (guessing zero Si)
days 3,4,5,6 - 10 drops (1.0 ppm cumulative Si)
Test (guessing some small amount Si)
days 7,8,9 - 16 drops (0.32 ppm per day, 2.0 ppm cumulative Si)
Test (no idea what it'll show at this point)

When It says "Test" I'd check for diatom growth, overall tank health, Si and N and P to see consumption by the tank to see if it's shifting.
If the Si keeps getting eaten up immediately, with no signs in tank changes, I'd continue upping drops by +5 drops per 10 gal every 3 days.
If something is happening like a shift toward noticeable diatom bloom, then I'd hold dose steady for a few days and monitor the relative amounts of diatoms/dinos.
If Si accumulates (I doubt, but possible) wait and see what happens around 0.5ppm Si for a few days. This is approximately the paper's Si levels.
If after a few days of monitoring at 0.5ppm Si, the dino growth is still much more significant than diatoms, then I'd continue upping the dose by +5 drops per 10 gal every 3 days, up to 1.5-2ppm Si then I'd hold/back off the dose. I wouldn't attempt to exceed around 2.25 ppm Si which is 1:1 Si:N at 10ppm NO3.
I suspect the system will start producing lots of diatoms well before you ramp up to a sustained 1:1 Si:N at 10ppm NO3.

I will also be trying this method ..unfortunately I cant get brightwell spongexcel...but I've found this on ebay

 

[OpenOcean33]

I just have a couple thoughts. First of all, go with what taricha says, he has much more experience than me with this type of dosing.

I dosed sponge excel for about 6 weeks, just before Christmas last year. What I found was that the instructions on the bottle encouraged the growth of lots of diatoms. I did not measure the silicates in my tank with any sort of tester. I never went above 1 drop per 20 gallons. The second thing is that my phosphates dropped like a rock and I had to dose them also to keep them measurable.

Keep us informed. Good luck.

I wasnt aware of a phosphate drop at all that's good to know. Yeah the instructions say 1 drop per 20 gallons for the first 2 weeks then increase 10% untill you reach 1 ppm. Witch I believe it said was 1 drop increase o.01 ppm so it's like 325 drops or like 3 MLs I ddint cover it the mls yet. Thanks for the advice.

 

[taricha]

I dosed sponge excel for about 6 weeks, just before Christmas last year. What I found was that the instructions on the bottle encouraged the growth of lots of diatoms. I did not measure the silicates in my tank with any sort of tester. I never went above 1 drop per 20 gallons. The second thing is that my phosphates dropped like a rock and I had to dose them also to keep them measurable.

This is atypical. Most people who've already had dinos take over for some time, had trace elements pretty depleted by the dino outbreak, so the onset of diatoms is very light. just a dusting - and not the "bloom" we expected when we first started with the idea of Si dosing. Myself and others have pushed SiO2 amounts to the ballpark of 2ppm with only minor diatom growth (because we were already trace element depleted.
The diatom bloom and the rapid PO4 drop indicate that's not the situation your system was in.

I will also be trying this method ..unfortunately I cant get brightwell spongexcel...but I've found this on ebay

lucky you. much cheaper, bigger and more concentrated. I use the equivalent of that now - Si solution for microalgae from florida aqua farms.

I wasnt aware of a phosphate drop at all that's good to know. Yeah the instructions say 1 drop per 20 gallons for the first 2 weeks then increase 10% untill you reach 1 ppm.

Watch your system and see how it responds. A diatom bloom would be good if you got it- but most people don't get that - or a rapid PO4 drop for the reasons I mentioned above about the dino population already having bloomed and plateaued when they ran up against a trace element limitation.

 

[dwest]

This is atypical. Most people who've already had dinos take over for some time, had trace elements pretty depleted by the dino outbreak, so the onset of diatoms is very light. just a dusting - and not the "bloom" we expected when we first started with the idea of Si dosing. Myself and others have pushed SiO2 amounts to the ballpark of 2ppm with only minor diatom growth (because we were already trace element depleted.
The diatom bloom and the rapid PO4 drop indicate that's not the situation your system was in.

lucky you. much cheaper, bigger and more concentrated. I use the equivalent of that now - Si solution for microalgae from florida aqua farms.

Watch your system and see how it responds. A diatom bloom would be good if you got it- but most people don't get that - or a rapid PO4 drop for the reasons I mentioned above about the dino population already having bloomed and plateaued when they ran up against a trace element limitation.

Yep. I had already removed my sand bed and my tank was close to back to normal when I started dosing sponge excel. There were a few dustings of amphidinium here and there which I was trying to fight off.

The reason I had waiting many months to dose silicates was because of the “lack” of diatom growth discussed by some in your amphidinium thread. So, I was also surprised to see almost immediate growth of diatoms when I dosed. Even more surprised to see phosphates bottom out, as I hadn’t had to dose phosphates for a couple of months prior to that.

 

[jdubya]

Trying to battle dinos by increasing nitrates (nitrates and phosphate currently 0) been using neonitro, 10 gal tank been adding a cap full each day. I noticed hours after I add it the dinos explode in growth...is that normal?

 

[._Z_.]

Trying to battle dinos by increasing nitrates (nitrates and phosphate currently 0) been using neonitro, 10 gal tank been adding a cap full each day. I noticed hours after I add it the dinos explode in growth...is that normal?

They often wane and wean with light cycle, so if you noticed they exploded in growth near the end of the light cycle, that’s likely not because of the nitrate dose.

 

[saltyhog]

Do some salt mixes have silica in them? I've been racking my brain trying to figure out how I got a diatom bloom in a 3+ year old tank. The only change other than my increased nutrients and UV was that I changed to Red Sea blue bucket from Brightwell NeoMarine several weeks ago. Could that have anything to do with it?

Regardless, no dinos in the sand bed is worth the slight nuisance of the dinos, and I know they should go away on their own.

 

[jdubya]

They often wane and wean with light cycle, so if you noticed they exploded in growth near the end of the light cycle, that’s likely not because of the nitrate dose.

thanks!

 

[OpenOcean33]

Do some salt mixes have silica in them? I've been racking my brain trying to figure out how I got a diatom bloom in a 3+ year old tank. The only change other than my increased nutrients and UV was that I changed to Red Sea blue bucket from Brightwell NeoMarine several weeks ago. Could that have anything to do with it?

Regardless, no dinos in the sand bed is worth the slight nuisance of the dinos, and I know they should go away on their own.

Do you make your own rodi? How are your filters and tds? May just need to replace them.

 

[Pennywise the Clown]

Not too sure what my next step is now. I have been running a Jebao 55w steriliser forc3 weeks and things are a lot better. At first glance you wouldn't know I had dinos at all. My hammer corals are finally starting to reach their pre dino size and all other corals, fish and snails are doing great.
But I still get a fine brown coating on the sand as the day goes on and I blow this off with a turkey baster at lights out. However, it's not getting any better (but it's not getting worse either)
My phosphate level, which went really high after I installed the UV, has dropped back down to 0.15 and nitrates are holding firm at 20.
I'm thinking of dosing silicates but SpongExel seems to be unavailable in the UK. Is there any other product I can use?
Anybody suggest a plan to rid mysel of the last stubborn dinos?

 

[saltyhog]

Do you make your own rodi? How are your filters and tds? May just need to replace them.

Good thought.

Yes I have my own RO/DI. I run a dual canister DI with sediment, 5 micron and 0.6 micron filters before the membrane. TDS of my source water is 35, after the RO is 0-1 and always 0 after the DI. Nothing changed there. Probably time to change my sediment filter but I can't imagine that would have anything to do with it.

I'm stumped but not upset at all unless it doesn't resolve like my initial start up diatoms years ago.