Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[uhupong]

I used rebiotic and dino was gone in 3 days.

 

[taricha]

are you saying i have Amphidinium in addition to the Prorocentrum or just Amphidinium?

I see only amphidinium and diatoms.

 

[taricha]

Hanna states that the ulr [P checker] will only be affected by 10ppm SI or higher ...this is not true we see it as low as 2-3 ppm ...we are currently trying too contact hanna about this and are waiting for a reply ..

Hanna's answer is certainly based off of the info in the standard methods - PO4 by ascorbic acid...
"b. Interference: Arsenates react with the molybdate reagent to produce a blue color similar to that formed with phosphate. Concentrations as low as 0.1 mg As/L interfere with the phosphate determination. Hexavalent chromium and NO2 interfere to give results about 3% low at concentrations of 1 mg/L and 10 to 15% low at 10 mg/L. Sulfide (Na2S) and silicate do not interfere at concentrations of 1.0 and 10 mg/L."

 

[Rick Mathew]

I have icp tests from people where si has been anything from 2ppm upto 14ppm with readings of 0.2-.0.4 ppm on the hanna where icp shows that po4 is actually 0.02..we ask people to test with the hanna the same same time they send icp tests of for comparison..

Something to ponder with regard to the ICP test is that sample storage (Shipment Time + Lag time to testing). This can have an impact on the measurement of Phosphorous in the ICP analysis. The ICP results are lower than the Initial measurement results with the Hanna Checker. Here is a link to the post that discusses this issue.... https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/s...asurement-results-part-2.737414/#post-7698960

This higher measurement result being observed from the Hanna Checker may not at all be linked to the Si level but more to the lower ICP measurement because of "Sample Storage"

Is there any data that indicates the correlation of Si level and the Hanna Measured PO4 follows this trend...
i.e. as Si level goes up then Hanna Checker Results go up...Taking the ICP measurement variable out of it. If this were true then this would be a good indicator that there is a real issue of interference and not just a measurement method issue..

rick

 

[Jason mack]

Something to ponder with regard to the ICP test is that sample storage (Shipment Time + Lag time to testing). This can have an impact on the measurement of Phosphorous in the ICP analysis. The ICP results are lower than the Initial measurement results with the Hanna Checker. Here is a link to the post that discusses this issue.... https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/s...asurement-results-part-2.737414/#post-7698960

This higher measurement result being observed from the Hanna Checker may not at all be linked to the Si level but more to the lower ICP measurement because of "Sample Storage"

Is there any data that indicates the correlation of Si level and the Hanna Measured PO4 follows this trend...
i.e. as Si level goes up then Hanna Checker Results go up...Taking the ICP measurement variable out of it. If this were true then this would be a good indicator that there is a real issue of interference and not just a measurement method issue..

rick

We had people complaining of getting high readings from hanna while dosing si for dinos .. then getting their icp test results back showing low po4 and raised silicates where as people using normal po4 tests were not showing the same rise in po4 the data is not conclusive as of yet and we are still gathering data

 

[Kaiser]

Then I would check your rodi water for silicates ..but for amphidiniums or prorocentrum you would want diatoms too help outcompete dinos

Interesting. I live near the Triton US ICP lab so I can get a quick turnaround on one of those if I use it on my RODI, would you recommend that or the Hanna nitrate checker?

 

[AaronFReef]

I owe this thread a post. I battled dinos in my dry rock-started tank for over a year. I had two strains (I forget now, i believe ostreopsis followed by coolia) that both were defeated. The first was defeated by adding a massive UV sterilizer, but the second (coolia for sure) was persistent and pernicious. It killed off many of my SPS and essentially cost me a year and a half of tank growth. But eventually I overcome it. I believe the key for me was to let the tank get dirty. I mean dirty. No more siphoning of the sand, no more scraping the glass (I believe this was critically important as it gave a good surface for algae to grow that was not hospitable to dinos, whereas the sand supports dinos well) and limited water changes. It probably helped that my silica was through the roof fromSponge Excel silicate dosing as well. Finally, cyanobacteria began to grow across my glass and then down to my sand. This formed a mat that support diatoms and between the two of them they slowly claimed back surface area from the dinos and seem to have kept them at bay. I ran a small 15w AquaUV advantage sterilizer throughout the period and have never turned it off. I have had my nutrients dip down to like 0.02 ppm PO4 in the time since I've beat them, and they haven't come back. I largely keep PO4 near 0.10 ppm now and do my best to keep my nitrate at 5 ppm or above. I believe that having some algae phase is essential to defeating these guys. Trying too hard to keep algae at bay in the beginning of a dry rock tank I think probably lead to this issue for me. I never should have run a chaeto refugium so early on in the tank's life and probably should have left the skimmer off and just done water changes to maintain reasonable nutrient levels for the beginning of the setup. I will probably battle GHA in my next tank, but I will take that any day over dinos.

Thank you to @taricha for all your help to the hobby in defeating this pest.

 

[Jason mack]

Interesting. I live near the Triton US ICP lab so I can get a quick turnaround on one of those if I use it on my RODI, would you recommend that or the Hanna nitrate checker?

Triton dont do one for rodi water ...at least not here in europe ...AtI does one ..hanna si checker would work ..saliferts dont work well ..

 

[taricha]

I have icp tests from people where si has been anything from 2ppm upto 14ppm with readings of 0.2-.0.4 ppm on the hanna where icp shows that po4 is actually 0.02..we ask people to test with the hanna the same same time they send icp tests of for comparison..

We had people complaining of getting high readings from hanna while dosing si for dinos .. then getting their icp test results back showing low po4 and raised silicates where as people using normal po4 tests were not showing the same rise in po4 the data is not conclusive as of yet and we are still gathering data

The effect looks real, though needs to be pretty big Si to matter.
Quick check from me, Tank water spiked to ~1ppm and over 3ppm Si.

	SiO2 (ppm)	Si (ppm)	PO4 (ppm)
Tank Water	0.0	0.0	0.095
	0.0	0.0	0.104
TW + Si	2.36	1.10	0.110
TW + 3*Si	7.12	3.33	0.162
	7.12	3.33	0.153

3.3 ppm Si elevated the P readings by about 0.06 ppm PO4.
1ppm Si (would max out the hanna LR Si meter) gave a PO4 interference less than the error in the PO4 meter - so it's undetectable.
If someone were dosing Si, and not testing for it, this could indeed become an issue.

 

[Kaiser]

Triton dont do one for rodi water ...at least not here in europe ...AtI does one ..hanna si checker would work ..saliferts dont work well ..

Ahhh I was thinking I would just send the Triton one in under a new tank profile just as RODI but after thinking about it idk if that will work. I can have an ATI test here on Sunday but I don't know if they ever got a U.S. lab so turnaround might be a week to two weeks. I remember that Randy Holmes Farley didn't like their RODI test for some reason, not sure if he ever changed his mind l. Looks like Hanna will take about a week as well, but will cost more. Really starting to sweat cause my acropora are starting to look reeaaal rough.

 

[ReefPig]

Hello dino gods,
I've come in seek of your guidance.

Ultimately I'm sure the answer will be "get a microscope and know your enemy", but I'll let you know where I am and what's been going on.

After a significant change in my tank about 6 months in, where I changed out ceramic rock with live rock, I've been on the battle with both cyano and dinos at various points.

Cyano was cleared up with KZ Coral Snow and Zeobac initially, but like so many of us, my PO4 bottomed out one week during treatment, and low and behold I got dinos.

Initially they were the common snotty type with bubbles, easy to identify, they largely went away at night, so I knew a good solution is UV. Powerful UV added, a few days of turkey baster cleaning and away they went.

Then cyano returned, this time it wasn't easy to get rid of, and in varied between red and brown.
In hindsight, this was a few months ago after all, I now suspect I had both cyano and a different strain of dinos.

I had no stringy stuff, even the brown patches clung to rocks.
After maybe 4 weeks of trying various more naturally ways, I did the unthinkable and just decided to nuke with Chemiclean. This cleaned up everything, both brown and red.
After treatment I went ahead with doing the heavy dose scheme of MB7, and around this time I transitioned to NSW.

The cyano cleared up, and hasn't been seen since, however the brown patches keep coming back.
I'm 99.9% sure it's dinos, largely due to the fact I can see some bubbles, and well they're brown.

I've been hitting the UV, turkey baster, and massive amounts of MB7, but to no avail, clearly a different strain.
Worth noting at this point, I am also dosing PO4 and NO3 and have a stable pattern of dosing via my RO top off, currently at 10 NO3 and 0.1 PO4.

Fast forward a couple of months.

I've been on top of these things multiple times a day, trying to push them into the water column, but it simply wasn't working.

I decided the toffee hammer approach wasn't working, so I would try the sledgehammer approach instead, as I'm just bored now.

My current treatment plan:
Got myself some H2O2 and Dino X.
I'm now on dose 5 of Dino X, alongside twice daytime dosing of 1ml per 10gallon of H2O2, and alongside heavy dose scheme of MB7.
The first couple of days I did major cleaning and turkey basting, coupled with microbubbling.
I'm running blues only, with slightly reduce schedule.
And ensuring my PO4 and NO4 is still pushed up.

I haven't cleaned the tank now for 2 days, and it's seemingly making an impact. It's not regrowing half as fast, in fact, maybe the growth rate is 10% of what it was, and in multiple spots I would expect it, it's not grown back yet.
So I may be winning the battle.

All SPS are fine, no issue with polyp extension, perhaps slightly washed out, but nothing major. Two acans have gone through periods of being unhappy, but today they were pretty much back looking good.

I guess my question is, where do I go from here?
Do I continue the current treatment plan and push it up to the maximum recommended dino x treatments?

If it doesn't work and they return, where I do go? This pretty much was the nuclear approach, so nowhere really to escalate after this.
I'm thinking if this doesn't work, then I should go natural, with a refugium or algae reactor.

 

[Jason mack]

@stephchartier

Hello dino gods,
I've come in seek of your guidance.

Ultimately I'm sure the answer will be "get a microscope and know your enemy", but I'll let you know where I am and what's been going on.

After a significant change in my tank about 6 months in, where I changed out ceramic rock with live rock, I've been on the battle with both cyano and dinos at various points.

Cyano was cleared up with KZ Coral Snow and Zeobac initially, but like so many of us, my PO4 bottomed out one week during treatment, and low and behold I got dinos.

Initially they were the common snotty type with bubbles, easy to identify, they largely went away at night, so I knew a good solution is UV. Powerful UV added, a few days of turkey baster cleaning and away they went.

Then cyano returned, this time it wasn't easy to get rid of, and in varied between red and brown.
In hindsight, this was a few months ago after all, I now suspect I had both cyano and a different strain of dinos.

I had no stringy stuff, even the brown patches clung to rocks.
After maybe 4 weeks of trying various more naturally ways, I did the unthinkable and just decided to nuke with Chemiclean. This cleaned up everything, both brown and red.
After treatment I went ahead with doing the heavy dose scheme of MB7, and around this time I transitioned to NSW.

The cyano cleared up, and hasn't been seen since, however the brown patches keep coming back.
I'm 99.9% sure it's dinos, largely due to the fact I can see some bubbles, and well they're brown.

I've been hitting the UV, turkey baster, and massive amounts of MB7, but to no avail, clearly a different strain.
Worth noting at this point, I am also dosing PO4 and NO3 and have a stable pattern of dosing via my RO top off, currently at 10 NO3 and 0.1 PO4.

Fast forward a couple of months.

I've been on top of these things multiple times a day, trying to push them into the water column, but it simply wasn't working.

I decided the toffee hammer approach wasn't working, so I would try the sledgehammer approach instead, as I'm just bored now.

My current treatment plan:
Got myself some H2O2 and Dino X.
I'm now on dose 5 of Dino X, alongside twice daytime dosing of 1ml per 10gallon of H2O2, and alongside heavy dose scheme of MB7.
The first couple of days I did major cleaning and turkey basting, coupled with microbubbling.
I'm running blues only, with slightly reduce schedule.
And ensuring my PO4 and NO4 is still pushed up.

I haven't cleaned the tank now for 2 days, and it's seemingly making an impact. It's not regrowing half as fast, in fact, maybe the growth rate is 10% of what it was, and in multiple spots I would expect it, it's not grown back yet.
So I may be winning the battle.

All SPS are fine, no issue with polyp extension, perhaps slightly washed out, but nothing major. Two acans have gone through periods of being unhappy, but today they were pretty much back looking good.

I guess my question is, where do I go from here?
Do I continue the current treatment plan and push it up to the maximum recommended dino x treatments?

If it doesn't work and they return, where I do go? This pretty much was the nuclear approach, so nowhere really to escalate after this.
I'm thinking if this doesn't work, then I should go natural, with a refugium or algae reactor.

Use a uv in conjunction with h2o2 and dinox dose the h2o2 at night when uv is on ..

 

[ReefPig]

@stephchartier

Use a uv in conjunction with h2o2 and dinox dose the h2o2 at night when uv is on ..

Interesting, I do currently have the UV off, but this is largely because I'm trying to force a lot of bacteria into the tank and hope they dominate.

As for the H2O2 at night, I'm only doing it during the day as I do the Dino X after lights out and didn't want to dump too many chemicals in at the same time.

So you're suggesting UV 24/7, dinox and H2O2 after lights out?

 

[Jason mack]

Interesting, I do currently have the UV off, but this is largely because I'm trying to force a lot of bacteria into the tank and hope they dominate.

As for the H2O2 at night, I'm only doing it during the day as I do the Dino X after lights out and didn't want to dump too many chemicals in at the same time.

So you're suggesting UV 24/7, dinox and H2O2 after lights out?

No not 24/7 but you can if you want . But id dose them both at night ...just leave 20-30 min between doses . ..dinos will feed of the dinoX it fills them up so they cant eat anymore ...the uv will increase the potency of the h2o2 ..im looking for an article on it i will post when i find it ..

 

[Jason mack]

Interesting, I do currently have the UV off, but this is largely because I'm trying to force a lot of bacteria into the tank and hope they dominate.

As for the H2O2 at night, I'm only doing it during the day as I do the Dino X after lights out and didn't want to dump too many chemicals in at the same time.

So you're suggesting UV 24/7, dinox and H2O2 after lights out?

UV-Hydrogen Peroxide Processes

The fundamentals of advanced photochemical oxidation processes using UV-radiation and hydrogen peroxide, as well as a straight forward approach for tr…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[ReefPig]

UV-Hydrogen Peroxide Processes

The fundamentals of advanced photochemical oxidation processes using UV-radiation and hydrogen peroxide, as well as a straight forward approach for tr…

www.sciencedirect.com

Nice, thanks very much.

Ok I'll shift my schedule to be:

• Morning: UV off, heavy MB7 dose
• Afternoon: 1st H2O2
• Night: UV on, 2nd H2O2 dose and DinoX 30 mins later

I don't want to do more than 10 DinoX doses, so have about another week to go before I need the tank to rest from this barrage.

 

[kartrsu]

What do you do when your new setup from dry rock and live sand is infested with small cell amphidinium dinos and there is no algae or anything else to out compete? ;Rage

Currently running a 15W UV on a 65G with progress but not stellar. Thanks!

 

[Jason mack]

What do you do when your new setup from dry rock and live sand is infested with small cell amphidinium dinos and there is no algae or anything else to out compete? ;Rage

Currently running a 15W UV on a 65G with progress but not stellar. Thanks!

15 w is a liitle light on a 65g i would go with a 25w and dose h2o2 at night with it 1m per 10g

 

[taricha]

Really starting to sweat cause my acropora are starting to look reeaaal rough.

yeah, things can go bad fast if dinos attach directly to coral.
Run GAC for water-toxins, siphon frequently, use UV, hang additional rough filter media in high flow to let lots of dinos attach, etc. (search this thread for "dino scrubber" for details.)
We don't know the mechanism for dinos to kill coral tissue, but when they attach, it's fast whatever it is.

If it doesn't work and they return, where I do go? This pretty much was the nuclear approach, so nowhere really to escalate after this.
I'm thinking if this doesn't work, then I should go natural, with a refugium or algae reactor.

You didn't say that this different sand-dwelling dino was toxic / harmful etc.
It sounds like Large cell amphidinium, and it's usually the least toxic, and so conservative approaches are sometimes better for overall tank health.

What do you do when your new setup from dry rock and live sand is infested with small cell amphidinium dinos and there is no algae or anything else to out compete?

New setup? Call it "The Uglies", don't try to starve anything, and let things grow. Vacuum out the ugliest parts. Maybe add a few pieces of live rock and algae. Don't worry about it in a tank that has a long way to go to mature and will change many times anyway.

 

[taricha]

I never should have run a chaeto refugium so early on in the tank's life and probably should have left the skimmer off and just done water changes to maintain reasonable nutrient levels for the beginning of the setup. I will probably battle GHA in my next tank, but I will take that any day over dinos.

Thanks!
Yep. I feel like most tanks (in the dino threads at least) would be better off with more nutrients and better herbivores to manage algae, rather than trying to manage algae from the nutrient side.