Hawaii ban is official.

[hds4216]

I wonder if captive breeding programs will intensify.

 

[landlubber]

relax.
temporary till some new politicians take office with a different view.
remember when Indo closed?

i get what you're saying and you're not wrong. politics do change.
however, I should mention why i clearly remember when indo closed, because Australian coral prices shot up 100% very soon after. the same way that across the board surgeonfish likely will as well.
fingers crossed i'm wrong!

 

[sp1187]

i get what you're saying and you're not wrong. politics do change.
however, I should mention why i clearly remember when indo closed, because Australian coral prices shot up 100% very soon after. the same way that across the board surgeonfish likely will as well.
fingers crossed i'm wrong!

oh, I'm sure you are right about prices getting jacked up even more. when indo closed, we saw price increases on stuff that was already in the LFS.

 

[hds4216]

relax.
temporary till some new politicians take office with a different view.
remember when Indo closed?

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Hawaii is not Indonesia. Its politics are very stable. Currently there are only five elected republican officials in the entire state government. 92% of the state legislature are democrats.

 

[Gdog]

Agreed, I guess if you want it enough youll pay the costs... I chose the wrong time to get into this hobby haha

I chose the wrong time too buddy

 

[gafoley]

@Zionas they do listen to science but only when it supports their theory.

Exactly. With Covid, we're told we must listen to the scientists and the experts. But here, the scientists and experts aren't suiting their narrative, so they must be completely dismissed. Just goes to show you how full of crap these people are.

 

[gafoley]

Is it a conservation and collection issue or an enforcement issue? Adding laws and regulations does nothing if no one is enforcing them.

Neither. It is strictly a political and emotional issue. The science is pretty solid and enforcement is pretty reliable.

 

[hds4216]

Exactly. With Covid, we're told we must listen to the scientists and the experts. But here, the scientists and experts aren't suiting their narrative, so they must be completely dismissed. Just goes to show you how full of crap these people are.

This is incorrect. The science supports the ban, or at least it support stricter regulations.

 

[gafoley]

I am going to try to be as diplomatic as possible while expressing not just a difference of opinion but a difference in outlook and ultimate world view. Frankly this is not the best format for expressing these differences but it is an important topic that more people in the hobby should engage in.

I got my first job working at an LFS while I was in college studying biology. I was initially planning on going into Medicine but I loved aquariums and loved working at the LFS. One day my boss made a comment about the large pachyseris colony in the shop display. "These corals are so easy to grow here but they are almost all gone from the reefs in SriLanka I used to dive on" I immediately felt an urge to stop focusing on med school and work to focus on animal conservation and ecology. I wanted my children to enjoy the same animals I did.

My experience getting a degree in ecology and conservation turned me off to the modern environmental movement more than any other experience possibly could.

In short I learned that professors with PHDs lived in a bubble world of credentials where an article published in a peer reviewed paper ment more than the experience of divers and collectors who had been practicing for sometimes as much as 40 years. Additionally this elitism led them to say things like we can't trust hobbyists to keep these animals only I can because of my special permit. All the while they regularly consulted private hobbyists for help in caring for their animals when they were at a loss.

My disrespect for academia only increased after working at a public aquarium and seeing some of the worst most unethical and I'll informed treatment of aquatic animals imaginable. Just because someone has graduated from a prestigious school with an ichthyology degree does not mean they know the slightest about how to care for animals in an aquarium. In fact many of the mentors I most respect in this hobby dropped out of school.

Whenever anyone insists upon only accepting information if it is supported by peer reviewed journals I immediately question this individuals sinserity. So often this is used as an attempt to dismiss those who haven't done their dues sucking up and going into debt to pay homage to intellectual institutions. Instead they left, started their own businesses came up with innovative new ideas and technology to share the ocean we all love with more people.

I have never seen a single studying showing any conclusive evidence that aquarium collection has led to any significant threat to Hawaiian reefs. I have spoken to numerous collectors who have collected at the same spots for decades and report finding the same number of fish now as before.

Additionally Hawaii has been highly regulated for years. Collection receives far more oversight than nearly anywhere else in the world.

More importantly this matches with what any ecology 101 class will tell you about coral reefs. Reefs are space limited. Fish reproduce in huge numbers and the only reason more larva don't survive is because there is such aggressive competition for habitable space. In fact I remember learning statistical modeling based on this premise as one of the only ways to show how it is possible for reefs to have such great diversity.

The collection needed to negatively impact reef fish density would have to be incredibly great given the ecosystems natural ability to fill empty space.

Given the magnitude of food fish collection and more importantly habitat reduction through environmental changes reducing the size of habitable areas, it makes no sense to focus on the aquarium industry.

After my experience I fundamental believe that academia and NGOs are more interested in raising money by spreading fear than solving problems.

After hearing professors tell me that studies showed that the factors with the greatest correlation with stake holder satisfaction with wildlife management were local controll and well defined property rights, I then heard the same professors insist that huge federal or international legislation was needed and that more land should be public owned and less private.

Never is the solution to trust the private collectors to purchase and manage their own collection rights. This has proven extremely successful in increasing stake holder satisfaction but it doesn't require academic funding or government regulations so why would intellectuals or politicians even consider it.

Very well said.

 

[gafoley]

This is incorrect. The science supports the ban, or at least it support stricter regulations.

What science is that? The people who have researched this fishery for decades say it is not only sustainable but probably the best managed aquarium fishery in the world. Can you cite your source?

 

[hds4216]

What science is that? The people who have researched this fishery for decades say it is not only sustainable but probably the best managed aquarium fishery in the world. Can you cite your source?

There is substantial evidence that the aquarium collection practice has detrimental effects. A studied on the issue concluded "There was a significant difference in the abundance of aquarium fishes between control and collection sites but no differences in the abundance of nonaquarium species between these sites." https://www.researchgate.net/public...ollectors_on_Coral_Reef_Fishes_in_Kona_Hawaii

You don't get denied by the state Senate, state House, and unanimously rejected in your appeal by the Hawai'i Supreme Court and Hawaii’s Environmental Council without strong evidence that mismanagement is occurring, especially when you are on the side of the industry, which loses relatively rarely, especially on environmental issues.

 

[shred5]

I am going to try to be as diplomatic as possible while expressing not just a difference of opinion but a difference in outlook and ultimate world view. Frankly this is not the best format for expressing these differences but it is an important topic that more people in the hobby should engage in.

I got my first job working at an LFS while I was in college studying biology. I was initially planning on going into Medicine but I loved aquariums and loved working at the LFS. One day my boss made a comment about the large pachyseris colony in the shop display. "These corals are so easy to grow here but they are almost all gone from the reefs in SriLanka I used to dive on" I immediately felt an urge to stop focusing on med school and work to focus on animal conservation and ecology. I wanted my children to enjoy the same animals I did.

My experience getting a degree in ecology and conservation turned me off to the modern environmental movement more than any other experience possibly could.

In short I learned that professors with PHDs lived in a bubble world of credentials where an article published in a peer reviewed paper ment more than the experience of divers and collectors who had been practicing for sometimes as much as 40 years. Additionally this elitism led them to say things like we can't trust hobbyists to keep these animals only I can because of my special permit. All the while they regularly consulted private hobbyists for help in caring for their animals when they were at a loss.

My disrespect for academia only increased after working at a public aquarium and seeing some of the worst most unethical and I'll informed treatment of aquatic animals imaginable. Just because someone has graduated from a prestigious school with an ichthyology degree does not mean they know the slightest about how to care for animals in an aquarium. In fact many of the mentors I most respect in this hobby dropped out of school.

Whenever anyone insists upon only accepting information if it is supported by peer reviewed journals I immediately question this individuals sinserity. So often this is used as an attempt to dismiss those who haven't done their dues sucking up and going into debt to pay homage to intellectual institutions. Instead they left, started their own businesses came up with innovative new ideas and technology to share the ocean we all love with more people.

I have never seen a single studying showing any conclusive evidence that aquarium collection has led to any significant threat to Hawaiian reefs. I have spoken to numerous collectors who have collected at the same spots for decades and report finding the same number of fish now as before.

Additionally Hawaii has been highly regulated for years. Collection receives far more oversight than nearly anywhere else in the world.

More importantly this matches with what any ecology 101 class will tell you about coral reefs. Reefs are space limited. Fish reproduce in huge numbers and the only reason more larva don't survive is because there is such aggressive competition for habitable space. In fact I remember learning statistical modeling based on this premise as one of the only ways to show how it is possible for reefs to have such great diversity.

The collection needed to negatively impact reef fish density would have to be incredibly great given the ecosystems natural ability to fill empty space.

Given the magnitude of food fish collection and more importantly habitat reduction through environmental changes reducing the size of habitable areas, it makes no sense to focus on the aquarium industry.

After my experience I fundamental believe that academia and NGOs are more interested in raising money by spreading fear than solving problems.

After hearing professors tell me that studies showed that the factors with the greatest correlation with stake holder satisfaction with wildlife management were local controll and well defined property rights, I then heard the same professors insist that huge federal or international legislation was needed and that more land should be public owned and less private.

Never is the solution to trust the private collectors to purchase and manage their own collection rights. This has proven extremely successful in increasing stake holder satisfaction but it doesn't require academic funding or government regulations so why would intellectuals or politicians even consider it.

Agreed and this is something I touched on a while back in another thread.
Taking a fish off a reef has little affect because there is only so much space. You remove one fish and another has a chance to survive. A anemone can only host so many clowns and their are only so many anemones. What happens if you take a clown? It gives room for another clown to survive.

Reef destruction has very little to do with reef keeping and has more to do with allot of other stuff like population, pollution, clearing mangrove swamps, filling in swamps for homes.

Hawaii is the last place that should be shut down because it was managed well and as far as yellow tangs population has been increasing.

As far as their being aqua cultured tangs they are very very hard because of the way they spawn. We may never have enough to fill the hobby by captive breeding. Does anyone know the amount of yellow tangs that come from Hawaii? It was close to half a million at one point. We would be lucky if a thousand tangs were being tank raised.

The price of tangs and wrasses will go up no matter where they are from because supply will be way less than demand. We will also loose some fish from the hobby. This captive breeding is no where near the levels it needs to be to even support 10 percent of what the hobby requires other than maybe clownfish. Most saltwater fish are extremely hard to breed in numbers because they are broadcast spawners and do not lay eggs on a medium like most freshwater fish. Most also have a planktonic stage and the foods are not easy to raise. This is not the freshwater hobby.


The fact of the matter is Hawaii shutting down actually leads to more fish deaths because now the fish will come from more places with lesser facilities with less control and from farther distance. This will lead to more disease and death. Hawaii has so many flights out a day to mainland USA and that is where most of their fish go.

It also can lead to more closures other places as more pressure is put on them.

If this stays closed for long it will push allot of people out of the hobby as prices get to much for some. More people that leave the hobby the less reason there is to captive breed fish too.

 

[shred5]

@Dana Riddle you want to add something to this thread.
You probably know more about what is going in there than we do.
Are you still on the advisory board on collection there?

 

[ItalCanadaReefer]

I wonder if captive breeding programs will intensify.

I sure hope so. Would be great for the world’s reefs and for hobbyists. At the end of the day, we are privileged to have such spectacular animals in our homes, and as reef enthusiasts we owe it to coral reefs to be respect the animals we keep and to support sustainability of coral reefs. Nothing hurts me more than hearing clients at LFSs ask about BASIC care requirements and “what fish is that?” as they ask the store owner to pack it up for them to take home. Makes me sad to know there are many people out there that do not do the research before purchasing species.

 

[shred5]

 

[NanoBoxes]

$115 for a Captive Yellow Tang is not that bad if you ask me.

 

[Antics]

How do the captive bred yellow tangs look these days? When they first came out they weren’t very appealing to the eye.

 

[Brew12]

To say that the entire practice was banned due to a few bad actors is a wholly erroneous statement.

There is substantial evidence that the aquarium collection practice has detrimental effects. A studied on the issue concluded "There was a significant difference in the abundance of aquarium fishes between control and collection sites but no differences in the abundance of nonaquarium species between these sites." https://www.researchgate.net/public...ollectors_on_Coral_Reef_Fishes_in_Kona_Hawaii

You don't get denied by the state Senate, state House, and unanimously rejected in your appeal by the Hawai'i Supreme Court and Hawaii’s Environmental Council without strong evidence that mismanagement is occurring, especially when you are on the side of the industry, which loses relatively rarely, especially on environmental issues.

Just want to point out that this study published in 2003 is using data that is around 20 years old. I believe more recent data contradicts this data.

Edit: Here is a study done by Hawaii that shows much more current information.
Microsoft Word - WHRFMA Report to Legislature Jan 2015.docx (hawaii.gov)

It shows that Yellow Tangs have increased in population of over 50% since 2000. The Achilles Tang population has dropped since 2000 but interestingly, it has dropped by more where aquarium collection is not allowed than where it is in some locations.

I'm not sure if more recent data exists that contradict this, but this 2015 report indicates that aquarium collection isn't a problem.

 

[ThePurple12]

How do the captive bred yellow tangs look these days? When they first came out they weren’t very appealing to the eye.

Maybe because they’re juveniles? I haven’t noticed any difference other than that

 

[OrionN]

Maybe because they’re juveniles? I haven’t noticed any difference other than that

No, not because they were juveniles. Those that I saw were deformed.