Hawaii ban is official.

robbyg

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This hobby has NO ONE to blame but the people in it for this closure, and all the future ones that will come to pass, or the eventual import bans from third world collection points.

The hobby collectively treats livestock as disposable dollar signs, and until the majority of end points for sales (LFS / online LFS) take livestock health seriously, stopping the "shoveling them out the door before they die" behavior, nothing will change. It's either they are the ones that ultimately force the needed change in the collection supply chain, or the government will take the easier option and just shut things down. Hobbyists cannot be trusted to do this as there are countless examples of consistently rewarding doing the wrong thing, because it's cheaper.

This hobby has some of the most insidious, immoral behavior condoned on the back of a dollar, and the entire industry has done little to nothing, instead reveling in the success of it. I don't blame the activists for painting a giant target on it.
I know this is not the most popular thing to say but I agree with you 100%. Some of the LFS are partly to blame but...

I have been in a lot of hobbies and most of them have one thing in common.

Ham Radio: You Need to pass an exam and each level of Amateur Radio operation require you to pass harder exams. You cannot buy new radios or amplifiers at a store without having a License in hand. Of course fleebay has now created a bypass.

Scuba Diving: License not required but it's almost impossible to dive without one. Each level requires harder written and physical exam passes.

RC Planes: You don't need a license yet in the USA but you do in a lot of other countries. Licensing is coming to the USA very soon.

Drones: You can't do anything really useful with an expensive drone unless you pass a exam and get licensed.

So yeah IMHO there in lies the problem. Anyone can just buy a fish or corals, even an extremely rare animal that is most likely an endangered animal without having a clue as to how to keep it alive.

If twenty years ago we had adopted a licensing system that required people to pass exams in order to have the ability to buy livestock we would not be in this situation. We could have easily created maybe a dozen levels of licenses that ranged from a Level one that allowed you to go into an LFS and buy the easiest and most plentiful animals like live rock a common anemone and clown fish. Then as you gain knowledge and experience you could take a level 2 exam and move up. Eventually some dedicated people would reach the top through a lot of hard work and proven success. These people would become a certified breeder in either fish or coral category or maybe both.

These top level people would be the only ones allowed to buy rare fish or corals and if I was setting up that exam I would require proof that you could breed certain fish like Clowns plus others and have meticulous logs for review.
A system like this would have spurred more people to become captive breeders because it would be lucrative. In return as fish stocks grew for a certain breed they could be added as approved fish for people with lower license levels.

If we had self regulated with the aid of the government early on when the signs of problems were already visible to us but not on most countries radars they would have agreed to enforce laws that we helped create and they would have recognized a licensing system that we created. Then we could have gone further and created a lobbying organization that was funded by the licensing fee's, manufactures and LFS.
This new organization would have the ability to influence the politics so that by now we would have a seat at the regulatory table because we would have fish like Yellow Tangs and dozens of other fish already being sold by the thousands each year as captive bred and now available to level one license holders and the excess released into the wild to build up the populations.
At this point we would be respected as a organization/Hobby that was helping to fix the problems instead of one that is making the problems worst.

I am not guessing at this outcome, I have seen it play out in Ham radio. In Amateur Radio we have Radio Spectrum that we use that is worth billions of dollars to commercial companies and the FCC would love to sell it to them. The problem for the FCC is that we have over 750,000 licensed operators and a lobby group called the ARRL that makes sure they don't take away any of our radio spectrum or usage rights.


As it stands the reefing community is just a lot of individuals and small companies that are not organized into a cohesive group and are therefore vulnerable to every new law that pops into some politicians head.
 
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eric.tech

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I know this is not the most popular thing to say but I agree with you 100%. Some of the LFS are partly to blame but...

I have been in a lot of hobbies and most of them have one thing in common.

Ham Radio: You Need to pass an exam and each level of Amateur Radio operation require you to pass harder exams.

Scuba Diving: License not required but it's almost impossible to dive without one. Each Technical level requires harder and harder exam passes.

RC Planes: You don't need a license yet in the USA but you do in a lot of other countries. Licensing is coming to the USA very soon.

Drones: You can't do anything really useful with an expensive drone unless you pass an exam and get licensed.

So yeah IMHO there in lies the problem. Anyone can just buy a fish or corals, even an extremely rare animal that is most likely an endangered animal without having a clue as to how to keep it alive.

If twenty years ago we had adopted a licensing system that required people to pass exams in order to have the ability to buy livestock we would not be in this situation. We could have easily had maybe a dozen levels of licensing that ranged from a Level one that allowed you to go into an LFS and buy the easiest and most plentiful animals like live rock a common anemone and clown fish. Then as you gain knowledge and experience you could move up and eventually reach the top with a lot of hard work and proven success to become a certified breeder in either fish or coral category or both.

These people would be the only ones allowed to buy rare fish or corals and if I was setting that up the exam would require proof that you could breed certain fish like Clowns and others. A system like this would have spurred more people to become captive breeders because it would be lucrative and in return as fish stocks grew for each breed they would be added as approved fish for people with lower license levels.

If we had self regulated with the aid of the government early on when the signs of problems were already visible to us but not on most countries radars they would have agreed to enforcing laws that we helped create and they would have recognized a licensing system that we created. Then we could have created a lobbying organization that was funded by the licensing fee's, manufactorues and LFS that would have had the ability to influence the politics and by now we would have a seat at the regulatory table because by now we would have fish like Yellow Tangs and dozens of other fish already being sold by the thousands for cheap as captive bred and available to level one license holders. So we would be respected as being an organization that was helping to fix the problems instead of one that is making the problems worst.

I am not guessing at this outcome, I have seen it play out in Ham radio. In Amateur Radio we have Radio Spectrum that we use that is worth billions of dollars to commercial companies and the FCC would love to sell it to them. The problem for the FCC is that we have over 750,000 licensed operators and a lobby group called the ARRL that makes sure they don't take away any of our radio spectrum or usage rights.

As it stands the reefing community is a bunch of individuals and small companies that are not organized into a cohesive group and are vunerable to every new law that pops into some politicians head.

At least in the US if an animal/pet is on the endangered or protected list, they cannot be legally sold in the US. Take the Asian arowana from the fresh water side of things.

obviously there are folks that will bend and/or break these rules ruining it for the rest of us.

I agree there should be better education on fish/coral keeping provided by the LFS, but if the bar is raised too high, it will discourage people from entering the hobby and it will slowly wither. On the spectrum of things, Too far one way and over harvesting the wild stock will have damaging effects on our reefs. on the other end of the spectrum, it becomes too expensive and/or cumbersome for people to keep fish. Finding a balance in the middle is going to be tricky.
 

GoodKat

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I am happy to see civil thought provoking dialogue on such an important topic. This may be an unpopular opinion, but much like sports cars, I do not think this hobby was ever meant to be about "buying the lowest price fish available". It is a burden that we all share: to try to buy captive when we can, even if it means shelling out some extra cash.


I find people are more interested in my tank when I can reassure them that nothing is endangered or wild caught.
 

newfly

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maybe this is an unpopular opinion. I don’t live in Hawaii and I believe most of us here don’t as well. I don’t really care what the reason is, but Hawaiian have the right not to export any of their resources if they choose to.

we as hobbyist, I don’t think have any right to demand they sell their yellow tang. It’s a free market.
 

GoodKat

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maybe this is an unpopular opinion. I don’t live in Hawaii and I believe most of us here don’t as well. I don’t really care what the reason is, but Hawaiian have the right not to export any of their resources if they choose to.

we as hobbyist, I don’t think have any right to demand they sell their yellow tang. It’s a free market.
While true... I'm not sure anyone was making that argument. Its trite to say "its a free market" and end a debate there.
 

Rjramos

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maybe this is an unpopular opinion. I don’t live in Hawaii and I believe most of us here don’t as well. I don’t really care what the reason is, but Hawaiian have the right not to export any of their resources if they choose to.

we as hobbyist, I don’t think have any right to demand they sell their yellow tang. It’s a free market.
I don’t live in Hawaii, I live in the state of Florida. Last July, here in south Florida, the harvesting of marine ornamental fish in Biscayne National Park was banned as well. Following the Red Tide incidents and massive fish and wildlife die off some years ago, the FWC, closed the possession of inshore species such as snook, redfish, and sea trout. The keys, are booked every year at the end of July for just 2 days of lobster mini season harvest with people from every state in the country. A lobster sanctuary was also established inside of Biscayne National Park. Restrictions are always gonna increase from here on, affecting small businesses and the economy in a world already compromised by COVID19 shutdowns and lock downs. Although, a slightly different subject, what is the opinion here? Should South Florida continue to increase restrictions of its marine resources, consequently affecting those that live here and those that come here?
 
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Zionas

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:) Yes it’s so hard to understand that the least effective way of telling someone not to do something is just to tell them “don’t do it”.

They have to remember we are paying them to serve us. That their actions are privileges. They are our servants and should act as such. They’re only hurting people like ones here that actually care about livestock and are willing to take the time and effort to research.

They’re merely providing a service through their work that we can choose to accept or reject, and if they’re hurting good people in the process they’ve overstepped their boundaries and are no longer welcome to intervene in our lives and livelihoods.

Right now the best solution is to support Captive Breeding efforts and research institutions that are willing to cooperate with us. We should start acting as one unit, educating people around us and growing our numbers.

Across the world this requires a change in mentality to how things really are. The people we elect are ultimately there to serve us. We are their money lenders, we are paying them, we are simply outsourcing parts of our own lives to them. Without us they’re useless. Instead of them cutting us off we should have all the means to cut THEM off monetarily.

The only way forward is to grow so strong as a network that they simply can’t shut us down. We need to get to the point where we’re of assistance to each other through reefing organizations, and even better, have fellow reefers in higher positions including research institutes.
 
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Rjramos

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:) Yes it’s so hard to understand that the least effective way of telling someone not to do something is just to tell them “don’t do it”.

They have to remember we are paying them to serve us. That their actions are privileges. They are our servants and should act as such. They’re only hurting people like ones here that actually care about livestock and are willing to take the time and effort to research.

They’re merely providing a service through their work that we can choose to accept or reject, and if they’re hurting good people in the process they’ve overstepped their boundaries and are no longer welcome to intervene in our lives and livelihoods.

Right now the best solution is to support Captive Breeding efforts and research institutions that are willing to cooperate with us. We should start acting as one unit, educating people around us and growing our numbers.

Across the world this requires a change in mentality to how things really are. The people we elect are ultimately there to serve us. We are their money lenders, we are paying them, we are simply outsourcing parts of our own lives to them. Without us they’re useless. Instead of them cutting us off we should have all the means to cut THEM off monetarily.

The only way forward is to grow so strong as a network that they simply can’t shut us down. We need to get to the point where we’re of assistance to each other through reefing organizations, and even better, have fellow reefers in higher positions including research institutes.
Wow! Words from the “People’s” Republic of China!
 

litlsea

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This has been coming for a long time. As I see it in the long run it will be better for the hobby but not so good for the fishery side. Clams made this transition years ago and so will the fishery side. In my neck of the woods there are few LFS and only one that has any "quarantine" time. The rest shovel them out ASAP and that is OK if the hobbyist is aware and will quarantine and treat on their own. But I think a lot just dump them in and hope for the best. Captive bred survival will be better but we will pay increased prices and have lower availability for some species and none for others. Having imported and visited exporters from Hawaii it was a very well run fishery but there will always be cheaters. Indonesia is open again and perhaps Hawaii could open again but if not we will adapt. Its kind of the nature of this hobby.
 

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